About the crystalline q8 15^stance of Sawn...

I think this is funny, no, not the scam but that guy Sawn

quick search in legacy showd hes IGN:

And searching name on decltype almost all writings been claiming other ppl scammers, while now he is himself the one id guess xD

Np for everyone who wants the IGN so can rebuy it for too cheap again without public sale xD

No doubt what Sawn did wasn't nice. (S)he took advantage of Andrea's impulsivity and laziness. But the impulsivity and laziness were Andrea's. This isn't the real world where there are complex social factors at play that legitimately disadvantage people and put them in difficult situations that they didn't create for themselves. This is a game where life is simple. And, Andrea, you messed up.

Andrea, you were lazy and impulsive and you got taken for a ride. It's not fun but it's what happens. It's happened to me (looking back, so many mistakes!) but there's nobody but myself to blame. In this case, it's just on you.

I'm sorry this happened to you, but it didn't just "happen to you". You made the decision to sell an item you knew was valuable without doing adequate research. That is a mistake. I've made the same mistake. Maybe Sawn will toss some armbraces your way. Maybe others will take up a collection to try and make you whole like they do when friends get hacked. I don't know. Both of those would be unusual results. What I know is that you messed up and it sucks.

If there's a lesson here to be learned that saves you any kind of trouble is real life, then the price you paid will have been worth it. Sorry again for your loss. Many of us know that sting.

The good news is that you went out there wanting to sell your sword to finish your HoM. And that's exactly what you did. Selling for the price you want is never a bad deal. I've gotten several items for much less than market value from people in your position. The only difference was that those people were knowingly selling cheap because they wanted to finish their HoM and they thought their items would have a good home with me (and they were right). Those people had knowledge and acted on the basis of their knowledge. You decided to not do that. Next time, please take the time to look for a legitimate collector. That sword belongs in the hands of someone who will give it a good home.

Ofc he messed up. But how could he have any idea the buyer was trying to abuse him? Being away from the game more than 10 years. I won’t Start the « drama » about profit again, but there clrearly a difference of doubling your investment (which is , an AMAZING profit), and multiply it by 100. Max pointed it well, I doubt he cares about game or money anyway, he wanted to finish the hall. He was clear on that point. Tell me, how much % of hall can he complete with 1750e? XD

With that sword , he could do it for serval account.

Just take IRL example , find me any trade that gave 10.000% instant profit. Over years, ofc this amount could be reach, but we’re talking here of profit made in an area of 24h. Don’t take too long to search, laws are made to avoid such possibility , I wonder why..

I hope this sawn guy will give you something back, who knows it’s Christmas time.

When you wander out there cluelessly waving a sword like that, you're a sheep waiting for the wolves. To assume otherwise is just naive.

What I think is more interesting about what you have to say is this idea (that you keep circling around but never make explicit) about there being a quantitative way of defining a scam. Do you think there is a certain profit margin that is acceptable and beyond that is a scam? You use a lot of hyperbole to try to make your point (10,000% profit!!! zOmFG!!), but is that what you really think?

I have to say tho, asking PC here would probably gotten replies "its priceless" or "cannot be valued" which could've led to same situation if seller still didnt have any clue on even a range what to expect and looking just to sell fast without dragging it on auctions xD

Sorry that's all on you for being so hasty.

Perhaps that'll teach you a lesson lol.

Wish I had that sword though

And it is not a scamm as you willingly sold it for that amount.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Scam

Definitely not scam. I mean it’s exactly like people being trust as mod in some trade, who ran away with the money.

I mean , the guy pressed OK , he agreed on giving X ectos, and the « mod » 0 in exchange.

Both agree on that trade when they pressed yes.

He just decided that the second action/trade planned wasn’t profitable for him.

In conclusion : there are no scammers in gw, according to the way game was designed. Thx anet, i’ve Been blind all these years.

I wish I had that sword too, much more worth than my soul. What is the purpose of soul anyway

This is stupid.

Scams involve intentional deception. The argument for this being a scam is in the fact that the seller asked the buyer if the price being discussed was fair.

Otherwise, getting a good deal is not a scam.

A trade mod running off with the loot is a scam. They modded under false pretenses and lied to everyone involved.

This seller was lied to. That is the only argument I can see for this being a scam. Imagine being in that situation. Someone tells you they've selling that sword to finish their HoM. You ask them how much they need and they tell you. A deal is sitting there waiting to be done. You may never see another sword like this. What do you do? Honestly.

People can make mistakes and don't need to blame someone else for their ignorance and poor decision making. Grow up.

Keep in mind, that the guy had been told by the buyer that the trade was fair. He still lied to him.

And I disagree with the intentional deception. Ppl scam for profit, not to cause deception (ofc not ALL the time , but most ).

Besides, what the hell is that supposed to mean : getting a good feel is not scam.

Ok so you sell a fake painting to someone (telling it’s a real one ofc) , so he is happy getting a good price. This is not scam??? Cmon...

and still , he offered ectos, you know that ectos isn’t the money used for these kind of weapon. This is the signature of a true dupery.

You keep giving examples that involve intentional deception.

Your (latest) confusion is that you think deception is the *point* of the scam. It's not. The point is profit. Deception is the *mechanism* of the scam, not its point our purpose.

Add do you know what dupery means? Deception. There is absolutely no deception in offering ectos. It wad just a low offer. The offer progressed to the point of being a deal because of the seller's carelessness and impulsivity. Or maybe he thought he'd be happy top just finish his HoM but then changed his mobs after he found out that he couldn't gotten much more. Who knows? Offering ectos is not dupery.

Sorry for the typo in my last post. I've fixed it to help save you from any further confusion...but there's only so much I can do. You're just very confused.

Confused ?

Seriously don’t lie to yourself. Why didn’t the guy offered same price in armbrace, or in zkey? Keep your blinkers and tell me « because, ectos is a nice and famous money used in Gw for trades ». Yeah, right, in 2005 it was indeed. Would you sell a panda for ectos tomorrow ? I don’t know why, but I have little doubts.

About dupery, i’m Not English fist language, we have similar word in French duperie, which is another word for scam. Not deception.

Anyway , I don’t see where is the intentional deception in the process of abusing ppl ignorance for profit. If I would be a scammer, my last care would be the deception of the guy.

Maybe we’re facing some issues with language understanding here, with the true meaning of words, but I doubt it.

The only goal we should try to reach is : was this trade fair or not? It wasn’t...! At any point. The guy got abused, robbed , scammed... whatever the words you wanna use. End of the story.

EDIT : I think the language misunderstanding is on deception.

If you pretend that in this trade, there wasn’t intentional deception, you’re extremely fun. Or sad. The ectos as money proves it.

it's fair because both parties clicked on OK , end of the discussion.

It has nothing to do with rl stuff so don't bring law or Art in *ESPECIALLY* if you are not working in this field. THANKS

It obviously got sold cheap we all know that but its also not the buyers responsibility to tell the seller that the item they are selling is worth way more..... i mean its like someone is offering to sell you a Rolex and you offer $500, and they accept. Meanwhile the thing is worth $20,000 i know alot of people who would take that deal.

-You live and learn from your mistakes. Its always good to ask around or do some research before making a decision. Especially if you are unsure of something, whether it may be a game or IRL.

You didint get the point at all. It’s not about wether it happens or not irl. It’s a question of moral sens. Yeah, some ppl are evil, do bad things. Some are mureders... gz, it happens ! You’ve concluded it by yourself?

The question is should we congratule this behaviors ?

It seems that you think so.

About the unsure point , about irl and game : gold sellers make it same categories. Stealing 800 arms (or so, according to pc) , is stealing 500€ to that same guy. Keep say it’s a game, and a fair trade.

what I'm saying is that I couldn't give a flying fuck what your opinion on the subject is my Dear. Trade's done and both sides clicked on Accept , end of the discussion

Yeah, ofc I bet you’re just unable to understand that some ppl hate see such actions, and most of all congratuled. Ofc you don’t give a fuck, I bet you’d sell your mom for having be the buyer obviously. Sry you wasn’t online at this moment bra

Wish you gl for next opportunity « my dear ».

hope you have better next year.

As big of a bummer this is for the original seller, there was no way you were an "ordinary" player back in the good ole' days- ordinary players didn't own beautiful gems, such as a perfect q8 OS Crystalline- whether you were lucky enough to get it from a drop, or you bought for much cheaper price (compared to today's market)... you knew exactly what kind of collectors items you owned. Maybe it wasn't "nice" of the seller to offer such a low amount...but can you blame him? I offered my q7 -2/-2 shield for the q8 15^50 crystalline currently being sold (or trying to be sold I should say)... However I may have said something along the lines "I'll trade you my q7 -2/-2 ;)" mainly in a joking manner with emphasis on the ";)"- as well as to be able to see if it was actually real, b/c those are like unicorns.... I can 100% guarantee I'd commit with the trade if he was okay with that offer, which is significantly lower then what he is most likely looking for lol. It'd be the first collectors item I'd customize too.

However, just getting back into the game semi-recently myself, I can sorta relate to not being as familiar with prices on rare gems. I'm pretty glad I found this site because there are lots of pretty cool players out there who don't mind helping me with any price checks on OS items in game. Sometimes people are off by few ectos...sometimes off by significant amounts of armbraces...but everybody seems to be pretty cool about telling you to get multiple opinions on certain items. On some rare gems, I've found you kind of have to just go with your gut feeling and knowledge from research on this site, if you're able to find a thread with a past sale- sometimes you don't always find the exact item you're selling and it makes it hard to decide on a price...and in those scenarios I prefer trades rather than sale for armbraces or ectos.

So as others have stated...you wanted to complete your HoM on a character with your trade....1750ecto should make that happen. As you're doing this to fill HoM, do you perhaps play GW2 more so than GW1? If so, this loss you experience won't burn as bad, cause you can get back to GW2 with your HoM complete. If you're here to stay in GW1, which hopefully you are, then this is a loss you'll never forget, not to sound heartless lol. Next time you'll pay more attention in kamadan trade chat, or do more research (something should tell you to question the market when you see Q9's that can still drop being sold for xx-xxx armbraces *cough* Bone Dragon Staff, Eternal Blade, etc...especially when Armbrace's are consistently being asked to buy at 75ecto per, and asked to sell for 80ecto per....these should have been signs to do further research, and would have taken all but less than 1 minute during any hour of gameplay in Kamadan.) Because of this....this trade wasn't anything close to being considered a scam...just a real poor unfortunate sale.

Sorry for the misfortune... here's an awesome tune to forget about it though

The Wood Brothers- Good music for the scenario

Quote from jack l eventreur

Yeah, ofc I bet you’re just unable to understand that some ppl hate see such actions, and most of all congratuled. Ofc you don’t give a fuck, I bet you’d sell your mom for having be the buyer obviously. Sry you wasn’t online at this moment bra

Wish you gl for next opportunity « my dear ».

This trade doesn't even concern you so why do you feel so entitled to this subject?

The answer is in the 2nd line of my post. At least read it. I do consider this trade being scam, and I hate scam. I wish I could pm the guy before any shark did

But, honey baby child, scams involve one person intentionally deceiving another. You could argue that some of that happened here but it's a stretch.

The main mechanism by which this deal happened wasn't the buyer deceiving the seller. It was the seller being ignorant and careless. The seller seems to have known that he needed a price check but he chose to ask for a price check from the person standing in front of them who was on the verge of buying a gem of a sword. That is the definition of stupidity. And then the seller decided to not ask anyone else and go ahead with the trade. Those decisions are not the buyer's fault. These are simply things that the seller did to himself in his haste to sell and compete his HoM.

An offer was made, the offer was accepted, and that's that. Time for everyone involved to get over it. And time for people not involved, including you, to get over it, too.

It's (often, frequently, not always) dog eat dog out there and you sound like lunch meat.

To speak from a purely legal perspective, in many jurisdictions, taking advantage of someone’s ignorance by misrepresenting that a deal is fair or a great deal when you are actively aware it is not is 100% fraudulent. You can’t do that in real life and in many places there are robust consumer protections laws for that exact reason. Here, I think the most fraudulent element is telling the seller the payment will cover a full HOM when in reality it won’t get close.

But GW is not real life. Caveat emptor; it’s happened to me and all of us. It sucks and usually you have to just keep on moving through the disappointment.

There’s little doubt that the guy is a lowlife asshole, though. Let’s see if that stops anyone from bidding on it when the sword gets sold though. I have my doubts.

Sorry—and hope things work out.

Yuko

Thx yuko for clearing the legal perceptive. That’s exactly the kind of things I wanted to point out.

I agree on the fact Gw isn’t real life, however gold sellers are actually bringing it real (more and more). We barely see huge items sold for virtual money (arms/Ectos...) these days, things such as kanaxai or pandas... some guys pref to involve real $ . So when you got such item , it’s potential real money you can get selling it. This is the precise reason I reacted hard for that case.

Sime asian country (japan/Korea?) have set up law for virtual stealing, if I remember correctly. Even if, I agree, getting proof that there was an effectif virtual scam/stealing seems hard.

Refer to Anet's rules of conduct, if this is going to shift to real money reasoning, by stating Panda's, Kanaxai, or q8 OS Crystallines could have been sold for >$xxx amounts of cash in RL. He's much better off getting xx-xxx accounts- like most of the people who dominate and control that type of market in all games do- if we're going to bring up the topic of real money. Even with daily limits, xx-xxx account bots can generate insane amounts of Zkeys which can be easily converted to other currency for their site to sell for Real Money. Not to mention the one's in "top ranked" guilds who are "active" in GvG to farm reward points to sell guilds. This crystalline can't even come close to what that many accounts can bring you- thus no point in bringing up "he could have sold it for cash!"

At the end of the day, the seller messed up big time, but life moves on. It was nothing but idiotic to sell such a beautiful collectors item as soon as he first(?) logged on after years of not playing, with only asking the potential buyer what it was worth? In real life, those are the perfect customers to sell something to. Refer to buying a car....Person A doesn't know how to haggle and asks what its worth, so the dealer gives him a price. Person B spends the day haggling between shops to get 25% discount off price Person A bought for... life lessons.

At least he's aware of this site, and the plenty of collectors who give accurate price checks now, if he has other gems to sell. As Yuko stated, "Lets see if this stops anybody from bidding."

Also, for this to be "100% fraudulent", in real life, good luck making a case when you're the person doing the selling. Cause real life antique collectors buy low and sell high all the time. Most, if not all cases that see any real legal action, are coming from a buyer who -->Bought<--- a fraudulent sale due to misrepresentation of what the seller/company promised. Otherwise you're pretty much claiming that all pawn shops are committing fraud when they buy high end jewelry for dirt cheap, among other items, which is a pretty ridiculous statement...just saying.

Quote from Shaggy

Also, for this to be "100% fraudulent", in real life, good luck making a case when you're the person doing the selling. Cause real life antique collectors buy low and sell high all the time. Most, if not all cases that see any real legal action, are coming from a buyer who -->Bought<--- a fraudulent sale due to misrepresentation of what the seller/company promised. Otherwise you're pretty much claiming that all pawn shops are committing fraud when they buy high end jewelry for dirt cheap, among other items, which is a pretty ridiculous statement...just saying.

Yeah dude, I'm not saying the seller has a air-tight cause of action for fraud or fraudulent inducement in real life based on this fact pattern. My point is that real life isn't Guild Wars and evaluating it similarly is dumb.

But regardless, while fraud is not something that is easy to quantify across the board, making a knowing misrepresentation that you are reasonably sure someone will act upon to their detriment is enough. Taking advantage of someone's naivete makes it all the more reprehensible; in many jurisdictions, a factor in fraud and similar causes of action is whether the deceived party knew or should have known better than to trust the fraudulent statements. (In this situation, it seems like people are pretty firmly in the camp of "he should have known better," which hurts his chances.)

However, pawn shops and consignment stores are not a great example on your part because they, for the most part, do not purchase items outright. Items are usually kept as collateral for a loan (but even still, predatory loan practice is not a practice immune from legal consequences). In any case the example doesn't hold water here. In this situation, (a) the buyer held himself out in an expert in pricing rare items (crysta); (b) the seller asked the buyer directly if the price was fair and if it would meet his specified requirements, and (c) the buyer claimed that it would despite allegedly knowing that the price was neither fair, nor able to cover the seller's needs. That's not similar to a pawnshop situation, where a seller who needs an interest-free or low-interest loan puts up an item as collateral for that loan--there's no intimation there that the pawnbroker is giving a fair price or is an expert who will tell the seller what a fair price is. A better example to compare the GW market would be an auction-pricing evaluation. Say someone brings an antique to an evaluator and they estimate that "at auction" the item would be worth 500, when in reality they know it is worth 1500, expecting that naive seller to then sell the antique to a sham buyer, or the evaluator, when they offer to purchase at or near that price. That is a misrepresentation--plain and simple--and if you had such a clear fact pattern, it could potentially lead to legal action.

But again, its stupid to apply real-world ideas to Guild Wars. Its not real life. Most of the points made on this thread, such as the point Jack makes about real money transaction, are totally inapposite. And like you've pointed out, most "scam" scenarios in real life involve misrepresentations made by the seller because in most situations the seller is the one with bargaining power. My point was that regardless of whether this conduct would be legal, illegal, or unethical or ethical in real life, we can't apply real life's standards to it. We can point out that it's (a) a dick move by the buyer, and (b) a learning experience for the seller.

Touche with the pawn shop examples, but cmon... a random person in kamadan is not a "certified professional price checker". This was nothing but a bad sale and a dick move w/ a huge payout for the buyer, as said in previous post. Applications where anybody is able to sell something is a better example like "offer up, letgo" since this OS seller only posted in an public trade room, such as Kamadan district 1. You're able to list whatever Price you see fit on those apps, or you could also list "offer" on items for sale, and negotiate prices with the seller in PM's. You're nothing but an idiot if you're just going to take advice on a item you're selling, only from the interested buyer negotiating the buyout price, in this scenario. This wasn't a gathered event with promised price checkers...you're asking some random person whos interested in buying the item, when you have no idea what the market is like.

A scam would be if the seller actually posted this item on this site for a PC, and some of the top known price checkers said it was worth only 1,750ecto, so they could buy it for that or a little less. Why are we going to such great lengths to defend/argue stupidity?

I’m not disagreeing that the seller was dumb or made a mistake. I just don’t think anyone should defend the buyer’s actions either.

I don't think anyone is defending the seller. As I said, the argument is there to be made that this is a scam because he lied when he said that the price being offered was fair.

But I'd also argue that, by that point, the ship had sailed. The seller had already committed to selling for that price (without any reassurance as to the fairness of the price) and was just getting some last minute cold feet.

I'm not defending the buyer (although I am a fan of getting a good deal). I'm just not blaming the buyer. There's an important difference between defending and not blaming.

Quote from Expugnare

I’m not disagreeing that the seller was dumb or made a mistake. I just don’t think anyone should defend the buyer’s actions either.

Precisely.

About what you said shaggy, I don’t see why you’re talking about money making strategy, and boting. There is nothing to do with what happened, even if it’s true about how they destroyed the market. I doubt His plan was to « dominate the market », or any kind of this shit, but only getting a decent price for the amazing sword he got from the past (up to him to transform the benefits into real $ , or keep arms— wait, ectos ^^....). And eventually finish his Hall, he said it.

And I don’t know why you say Max was aware of this forum, I highly doubt he was, since he posted after the trade was done, like 24h after. I guess someone told him we’re having a talk about it.

Quote

things such as kanaxai or pandas... some guys pref to involve real $ . So when you got such item , it’s potential real money you can get selling it. This is the precise reason I reacted hard for that case.

Do you forget what you type? You brought real money into this debate... xD lol. So, I brought up how bots dominate PvP/real money market to shutdown this argument you have. If you're arguing he could have sold this q8 crystal for some serious bucks, he should just invest into bots and "make all of that cash back plus surplus, before Anet banned his ass". End of story = Seller was a dumb ass, and buyer is debatable dick.

You're just a troll if you continue this. You're not even sticking with what you say, it sounds like.

Also, there's no mention of "Max" anywhere in this forum, with a quick search and find. Idk what the hell you're smoking, or if reading is another issue. If referring to the OS, reread if you're curious to understand what was being said. I believe it was something pretty close to "at least now he's aware of this forum for future OS trades" or "a scam would have been if he asked for a PC on this forum, and well known collectors told him 1,750 ecto." Either case, refer back to the "reading seems to be another issue", as obviously he wasn't aware of this forum....the idiot took the words coming from some random person he met in Kamadan Dis 1 as "Gods Word" and sold him the crystal for what the buyer told him it was worth. This is more funny than scam- Cause you don't even have to play games to have the common sense to not do such a stupid thing. Would you sell stock you've invested in years back w/o checking what it goes for, just because some random buyer told you he'd buy it for a certain %' a share? No, because the internet is a real thing, and research is needed to be done before selling your shares. Perhaps Cryptocurrency would be a more logical "stock" as it's easier to sell to individual's than stock- but w/o trying to be too technical to try to defend/argue this sale that has already past...the analogy is still the same meaning... do your homework.

???

I just read the first paragraphe of your last post, i’m Tired of this case actually. And most of all of the retardness you’re showing.

I don’t know how you don’t get the point. The question is not how to MAKE fking money, since he ALREADY have the damn sword. It’s all about resources transfert/transformation (call it how you want). Exactly like panda/reindeers are used are money in extremely valuable trades, this crysta could be as well. It’s just a potential huge amount of arms, du to it’s value. And Max already had it in his inventory. And what you say, boting etc, is potential farm of zkey, not already in possession. What is hard to understand. Call me troll mate, but it seems that your understanding ability is hard limited.

Max doesn’t give a fking care of making money in a game he left. Only finish hall (according to what he said, I never talked to him). Why the hell you’re bringing the bots in here. It’s a complete diff subject. And yeah, it is a huge issue to Gw, and anet should ban them, etc. But plz open a diff thread if you want to talk about it , and stop call ppl of what’s they aren’t.

Have a wonderful day.

The only point this thread has come to, is that your butt hurt over a sale that you weren't even involved in, and that you're not too good at debates.

That’s your only opinion dude, about how good I am, or not in debate. Sadly I’m afraid your words have 0 value seeing your arguments, and the fact you brang bots into this « debate ». You’re just being out of the subject, only to prove that i’m wrong.

Once again, i’m Not English main language, so yeah I suppose that what i’m Saying isn’t reflecting 100% of what i’m Thinking/trying to say. However , if you’re able to speak French , you’re welcome to send me a pm, the and i’ll Be happy to explain how far from bots issues the initial talk was about.

Best regards.

Oui je parle francias. Though definitely would have to rely on google/textbook for non elementary conversation tbh.

I don't understand how you keep bringing up bots...I literally only brought up that to counter your real money topic. Even if French is your primary, you must only be decent at writing English and not too good at fully understanding what you're saying in English, if you're so confused as to why I even brought up bots to counter your statement.

Why the hell would a real money valued item, make you so much more irritated at this so called scam, as you typed in English? The only logical flow that it sounds like you're taking it, from reading it in English, is that you're more upset about this trade because the seller had an item worth trading for real cash. Which, if that's the only reason, then bots is a relevant topic. Otherwise, thats kind of a stupid thing to bring up, as that has nothing to do in the matter of determining if this is a scam or not. Nothing was falsely promised on the sellers end. If we want to play wordplay, 1750e could fill a HoM for sure as well, as PvE titles weren't discussed as to whether or not they'd be bought in this trade. 1750e is enough to buy hero armors, personal gear, cheap weps, and cheap minis. So that wasn't even fraudulent on the buyers part...Else, why did you even bring this up? Are you trying to argue that just because this item is a unicorn(1 of a kind) that it makes it more of a scam than if it wasn't?

Shit, type in French if needed and I can translate if you're more fluent in it.