Instead of Black List, how about Trade Ratings System (Similar to Presear boards?)

1st Official Post

    Since the thread below got closed...could we incorporate a rating system for trades? There could be "business rules" set to determine how &when one user could "rate" another user, to prevent the misuse of it. (Somebody giving another all +1 or all -1 ratings due to favoritism/hatred).

    Or if we didn't have to worry about that, then we could just trust each other to give ratings as we buy/sell from each other on our threads in trade forums. The thread itself can serve as a "legitimate source of proof" if the buyer/sell made the purchase after making their bids on the sale/buy thread. This could be designed so other members were able to view this rating and/or comments, and who gave them the review. Obviously it wouldn't have to be required, but all of the members who are concerned about buying from somebody who may be using an alt to fuel the bid war, could have a peace of mind if they saw that the seller has great ratings based on other's experience of buying from them.

    I don't quite see the use of a "Scammer Black list" since this forum isn't as active in pre searing... because of the never ending questions: "What is a scam" and "how does one actually scam when both parties have to hit accept?" If you've made it to this site, then the odds are pretty good that you're not going to be somebody who "sells a q8 crystalline 15%stance for 1750ecto". Figured I'd use this memorable moment as my example xD

    • Official Post

    The only way to reliably do this is to be able to leave feedback on the completion of a trade, same way as eBay works. That means you also need a way to track the trade/completion as well has have a fair and reasonable method of leaving feedback. On top of that you then have the potential of needing to have a method to contest said feedback and review it. This all takes time and resource.

    The Xunlai area allows you to trade to the users that you want to and ignore other users. If you feel like any posts in your threads break any of the Xunlai or Forum rules then you can report them and the mods will investigate.

    I guess. Take a look at the Presearing forums...nobody on that forum seems to abuse it, and it surely looks like they just designed it the easy way (ignoring everything you brought up). Looks like they just added a new tab/section on the profile pages of users, to include a +karma for trade feedback. It looks like the only "Business Rules" are that you have to be a member, and that you can't give yourself feedback. That would make the design/development a lot easier than what you're talking about(making it only accessible via completion of scheduled trade for best accuracy).

    Contesting feedback can be as simple as taking some screenshots and sending it to a Mod via PM on this site. "Hey, this person gave me feedback, but here's a screenshot of my conversation log and sale thread showing that we've never traded with each other." To make the work load less on the mods, if a lot of people were to contest feedback, include a new Rule Set stating that mods can temporary ban your account for a week(s) if you abuse this system/waste their time with investigative work. Or maybe... this user gets a temporary ban on the ability to create any threads in the sell/buy sections (Create a new access role that allows for READ only, instead of READ/Write, if a read only role doesn't already exist). People with multiple accounts wouldn't want to waste their own time, by giving their account a temporary ban on being able to post sales (since this site is the current best site for GW1 In game auctions). If a User was planning to just create multiple accounts to abuse this feedback of a particular user, or particular guild (since there seems to be some beef come up in threads), then it could be pretty easy to track the newly created accounts to the IP address, or no? I mean, that sounds like a basic Google Analytics report, which is free to use.

    But yes, if the idea would be to design this with the best accuracy, then the development work could take quite a bit of time, since this new feature would require communication between the users trade; thus a redesign of how the Sale/Buy Threads currently work. There'd have to be a workflow created that would allow "Trade In progress...Reserved Bid Hit...Planning to Sell in 48hours....Successfully Sold OR Buyer/Seller backed out (IF successfully sold then allow for Trade Feedback).

    Edited 2 times, last by Shaggy (August 2, 2019 at 4:33 AM).

    Yeah, but that defeats the entire purpose of having a "trade feedback score." Like why the hell is there a design to keep track of how many "likes" each user has? Why didn't you guys just design that to be the trade feed back? Honestly though...that could have been a simple button added on the users profiles (like the pre searing forums) where another user would actually have to view the persons profile, and click the +/-1 karma(trade feedback) button, maybe get a pop up for comments, then click submit to have that Users trade feedback increase or decrease. Whats the point of keeping track of how many times a user has "liked" your post? Is that even useful information to collect? It kind of seems like it was wasted work to help give "points" and possibly "trophies" to a user after they've gotten so many "likes" and have made so many "posts". But who really pays attention to that stuff, except for the mods that may have designed it? Like, I can get keeping track of the post counts, cause you guys could probably mine the data to see which forum threads are most active, if you're trying to pump up numbers (trying to increase activity throughout all parts of the forum, rather than just the most active parts).

    You can just say "were not wanting to put in the effort for that type of expansion", rather than dancing around the topic.

    You know how inefficient it is for somebody to have to search through all of the threads a user has made, and then scan through the entire comments to find that "feedback" you're speaking of? I don't mind doing this when I'm searching for specific q8's and what they were sold for on this site, when I'm trying to bid or buy a q8 in game. But this was more of a suggestion for more efficient trading systems.

    Not everybody just uses a "single" thread for "ALL" of their sales/buys. I tend to close mine out to remake new ones. I hate bidding on somebody elses thread if they've just carried it over for months(years)..especially if they're not the best with updating their C/O's. I give up on bidding on some items that I only have a little interest in, just because I'm too lazy to scan through 10pages to find the last offer on the item I was going to bid on.

    Also, this feedback you're speaking of would only be done if the user decided to edit their comment. I'm gonna go ahead and reference Your own rules here.... "Post a Bid or do not post." Yet, you just told me and any user who happens to read this thread to go ahead and break this rule, eh? I only see the feedback rule listed for the "Services Offer" or "services Requested" threads... none of which are used as much as the "sell" threads.

    Edited 10 times, last by Shaggy (August 3, 2019 at 9:58 PM).

    Sometimes i feel that this site exists for a different purpose than the love of Guild Wars and the community.

    edit: plz with downvote.

    we can see the names of the ppl that like a post but we can't see the names on dislike (anonymity on bad feelings or disagreement it's fair).

    Edited once, last by Arcana Force (August 4, 2019 at 1:33 AM).

    • Official Post

    First of all please don't take my replies to be that of the forum/mods as a whole, I'm replying with my own opinion of the practicalities in my mind. Perfectly happy to have such a discussion and it is certainly a suggestion that can be considered for the forum if there's a reliable and efficient way to make it work.

    Quote from Shaggy

    I guess. Take a look at the Presearing forums...nobody on that forum seems to abuse it, and it surely looks like they just designed it the easy way (ignoring everything you brought up). Looks like they just added a new tab/section on the profile pages of users, to include a +karma for trade feedback. It looks like the only "Business Rules" are that you have to be a member, and that you can't give yourself feedback. That would make the design/development a lot easier than what you're talking about(making it only accessible via completion of scheduled trade for best accuracy).

    In my mind, no one abusing it is not the same as it being possible to abuse it. That's the risk you have. I'm not that familiar with the users and popularity of PreSearing boards, but the fact that I was able to login and give someone +1 "trade karma" just by going to their profile means it's possible to abuse that. What's to stop someone creating accounts (something already highlighted as a problem) and then boosting their own/someone else's "trade karma"?

    Quote

    Contesting feedback can be as simple as taking some screenshots and sending it to a Mod via PM on this site. "Hey, this person gave me feedback, but here's a screenshot of my conversation log and sale thread showing that we've never traded with each other." To make the work load less on the mods, if a lot of people were to contest feedback, include a new Rule Set stating that mods can temporary ban your account for a week(s) if you abuse this system/waste their time with investigative work. Or maybe... this user gets a temporary ban on the ability to create any threads in the sell/buy sections (Create a new access role that allows for READ only, instead of READ/Write, if a read only role doesn't already exist). People with multiple accounts wouldn't want to waste their own time, by giving their account a temporary ban on being able to post sales (since this site is the current best site for GW1 In game auctions). If a User was planning to just create multiple accounts to abuse this feedback of a particular user, or particular guild (since there seems to be some beef come up in threads), then it could be pretty easy to track the newly created accounts to the IP address, or no? I mean, that sounds like a basic Google Analytics report, which is free to use.

    Yep that all sounds good and thanks for the ideas.

    In my first reply I was thinking of there being a lot of cases that would need to be dealt with, but on second thoughts I expect this would be quite infrequent and therefore not cause too much additional work for the Xunlai mods.

    Quote

    But yes, if the idea would be to design this with the best accuracy, then the development work could take quite a bit of time, since this new feature would require communication between the users trade; thus a redesign of how the Sale/Buy Threads currently work. There'd have to be a workflow created that would allow "Trade In progress...Reserved Bid Hit...Planning to Sell in 48hours....Successfully Sold OR Buyer/Seller backed out (IF successfully sold then allow for Trade Feedback).

    Absolutely, I just worry that the time and effort it would take to implement such a feature would far outway the time/benefit users will get. Happy to be proven wrong with that though and it can be a feature to consider for the future development of the site.

    Quote from Shaggy

    Yeah, but that defeats the entire purpose of having a "trade feedback score." Like why the hell is there a design to keep track of how many "likes" each user has? Why didn't you guys just design that to be the trade feed back? Honestly though...that could have been a simple button added on the users profiles (like the pre searing forums) where another user would actually have to view the persons profile, and click the +/-1 karma(trade feedback) button, maybe get a pop up for comments, then click submit to have that Users trade feedback increase or decrease. Whats the point of keeping track of how many times a user has "liked" your post? Is that even useful information to collect? It kind of seems like it was wasted work to help give "points" and possibly "trophies" to a user after they've gotten so many "likes" and have made so many "posts". But who really pays attention to that stuff, except for the mods that may have designed it? Like, I can get keeping track of the post counts, cause you guys could probably mine the data to see which forum threads are most active, if you're trying to pump up numbers (trying to increase activity throughout all parts of the forum, rather than just the most active parts).

    I agree that having to seek out people's replies to threads aren't the best way to check for this.

    The Like/Dislike wasn't designed for Legacy it is part of the default forum software. All the features we have are just out of the box WoltLab forum tools so to implement anything unique for the forum requires careful development if it is even possible at all. There may be trade/feedback plugins that can be added, something we could look into. It just depends what can be implemented within the WotLab suite.

    Quote

    You can just say "were not wanting to put in the effort for that type of expansion", rather than dancing around the topic.

    You know how inefficient it is for somebody to have to search through all of the threads a user has made, and then scan through the entire comments to find that "feedback" you're speaking of? I don't mind doing this when I'm searching for specific q8's and what they were sold for on this site, when I'm trying to bid or buy a q8 in game. But this was more of a suggestion for more efficient trading systems.

    One of the problems Legacy has is that there is only one Admin/Developer and their time is limited. There are already several projects that Kevin is undertaking for improving the forum which would benefit a lot more people than just (high end) traderrs. All of these projects take up the limited free time that he has. Therefore it is hard for any of the other mods to say "great idea we'll do that" because no one knows if it is possible or how long it would take.

    As I said on the first line of this post, my replies aren't from Legacy saying we don't want to do this I'm just wondering if it is necessary and if so what's the best way to implement such a feature.

    Quote

    Not everybody just uses a "single" thread for "ALL" of their sales/buys. I tend to close mine out to remake new ones. I hate bidding on somebody elses thread if they've just carried it over for months(years)..especially if they're not the best with updating their C/O's. I give up on bidding on some items that I only have a little interest in, just because I'm too lazy to scan through 10pages to find the last offer on the item I was going to bid on.

    Also, this feedback you're speaking of would only be done if the user decided to edit their comment. I'm gonna go ahead and reference Your own rules here.... "Post a Bid or do not post." Yet, you just told me and any user who happens to read this thread to go ahead and break this rule, eh? I only see the feedback rule listed for the "Services Offer" or "services Requested" threads... none of which are used as much as the "sell" threads.

    Yep absolutely, I do the same so finding a post history of users across the entire forum is not the best way. I do tend to go in and edit my own posts if buying, but that's purely for my own use to track and make sure I know what I've bought and closed trades on, not really for the benefit of others. Yeah the edit of a post is only specifically detailed for the Services section, but it can apply to the Buy/Sell too, editing your post to give feedback should be allowed there.

    Quote from Arcana Force

    Sometimes i feel that this site exists for a different purpose than the love of Guild Wars and the community.

    That's a bit unfair, we're very open to suggestions for how to improve. I think more transparency with how the mods on Legacy manage things would help for the users to understand though. As I mentioned previously, we only have one Admin/Dev (Kevin) with limited free time to implement such features. Perfectly reasonable to make suggestions and discuss them with other users for how to improve the Legacy community. We also made a suggestions thread here: What would you like from Legacy?

    • Official Post

    You can edit your posts in ALL of legacy. Specifically, you can not make a post in Xunlai just for feedback--instead EDIT the post where you made the offer/request/etc--this applies to ALL of Xunlai, though it is spelled out in more detail for services due to its focus.

    Likes/dislikes have been abused and as Bsolt pointed out, what is stopping me from disliking someones sell thread just because I dont like that user? That gives no indication of their selling abilities. As we are only a forum where we allow notices of activities and not the activities themselves, we cant really implement a like/dislike based upon what happens ingame as we are not the owners of the game.