team build challenge!

1st Official Post

    Fun challenge: try to come up with an effective team build for general PvE using 7 heroes, but without some of the OP meta skills that form the backbone of most teams. Your goal is to get Master's reward in Tahnnakai Temple. No consumables (including pcons and DP removal) are allowed - that would make this too easy!

    The banned skills are:

    PvE-only: "Save Yourselves!", Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, "You Move Like a Dwarf!", Pain Inverter
    Monk: Aegis
    Necro: Signet of Lost Souls, Putrid Bile, Death Nova, Enfeebling Blood, Mark of Pain, Blood is Power
    Mesmer: Power Drain, Unnatural Signet, Cry of Frustration, Energy Surge, Mistrust, Shatter Hex, Wandering Eye, Arcane Conundrum
    Rit: Shelter, Splinter Weapon, Signet of Spirits, Protective Was Kaolai, Mend Body and Soul, Life, Flesh of My Flesh

    Ele: Ether Renewal

    Sin: Death Blossom

    Feel free to not adhere too strictly to the rules - if you reeeally want to use one of those skills and you don't think it's too OP, that's fine. Just come up with something that doesn't look like you used a cookie cutter!

    WTB pcons

    IGN: Shadow Of The Owls

    Edited 5 times, last by Misty: banned BiP, Ether Renewal, Putrid Bile, and consumables unbanned Ineptitude and AotL (April 15, 2018 at 2:35 AM).

    • Official Post

    Some thoughts:

    -Many of these skills aren't overpowered, at least not inherently, and you've not listed some which clearly are. I think a better approach to such a challenge would be broader/less specific restrictions, eg, no more than one mesmer (and no pretend mesmers), no PvE skills, no more than two binding rituals per bar, etc. Some skills you'd need to explicitly rule out such as Soul Twisting, but I suspect it would be better to keep that to a minimum.

    -I wouldn't really classify this as a challenge: it's largely just winding back to before the last few skill updates where game breakingly overpowered bars weren't the norm. Most things are as powerful as they used to be, eg Monk backlines, and are fully capable of completing the vast majority of content.

    -A challenge with a vague end point (make it effective) doesn't really inspire participation. A "can you achieve this" type thing works better - it has a definitive goal. It also gives people a means to compare results.

    Okay fair points - which of these skills do you not consider OP? Maybe Aura of the Lich? Which OP skills would you add to the list?

    The goal is just to encourage people to think outside the box, without relying on any of those skills that are just too good to not bring. I wouldn't have any problem with people bringing a team full of mesmers or spirit spammers, so long as they are using unusual builds - I think any build that doesn't use any of the banned skills should be interesting to see.

    I'm not sure how far back you're thinking, but the current meta optimal hero team has basically been the same for 8 years. I'm pretty sure none of the banned skills have been changed at all in that time.

    Yeah okay, I probably should have specified a goal such as "complete Tahnnakai Temple HM - you may use cons"... so yeah, that's your goal! Get Master's reward in that mission with 7 heroes and none of the banned skills. First person to post a video (make sure all hero bars are displayed!) wins a special prize (someone please provide a prize).

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    • Official Post

    Skills which aren't op: honestly, most of them. Just because something is effective or frequently features in meta builds doesn't necessarily mean it's overpowered. Of that list, SY, Death Blossom, Splinter Weapon, Wandering Eye, and probably Cry of Frustration are the only ones that stand out as egregious. Probably EBSoH too, though physicals haven't received the love some casters have so that's fairer (especially so in the context of this challenge where physical heroes are generally bad). A lot of the Mesmer skills aren't really that bad; it's Fast Casting jacking them up that's the issue. Similarly, the issue with Shelter is Soul Twisting. People didn't typically run it before ST had it's functionality changed + spirits had their casting times cut. Minion Bombers seem ok to me, though if you want to push people away from them just banning Death Nova would be fine.

    Skills I'd ban: without having put too much thought into it, I don't like seeing Assassin's Promise used to spam PvE skills so either ban it or specify that you can bring it but not along with any PvE skills. Soul Twisting as mentioned. I'd prefer to not see Blood is Power either. Ether Renewal.

    I know you probably didn't put in a ton of thought when you said this, but I have a strong preference that cons of any kind not be allowed.

    Quote from Zephyr

    How niche it may sound, i was more stoked to zee a challenge that involved a full seven hero setup with the same primairy proffession.

    Won't change my mercenaries, so mesmer's all I'm going to be able to play. As you didn't specify a goal I chose Ravenheart Gloom HM as my playground. As I didn't have any backup weapons for my mesmers I decided to just use what I have without adding a second minion master or healer. Therefore I had to play panic myself; was a bit too close with esurge.

    See also: https://archiv.wartower.de/forum/showthread.php?t=1132802

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    Marty Silverblade As the build mod you'd be the perfect candidate to host a weekly build challenge. x)

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    Krschkr very nice!!! This is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see (= I've banned a couple more skills (Blood is Power, Ether Renewal, and Putrid Bile) now - care to try again without them? =P Ineptitude and Aura of the Lich are now unbanned.


    Marty Silverblade I think we may have different definitions of OP xD In this context I mean that those skills are so strong that they beat out all alternatives in numerous areas of the game. For example, Soldier's Defense is an excellent skill in Deep SC, but it requires some skill to use, doesn't trivialize the content, and is next to useless elsewhere. Ebon Escape, on the other hand, is an exceptionally useful skill, being meta in every single speed clear - it performs an important function significantly better than any alternative - you are essentially forced to bring it.

    A lot of people who don't have enough mesmer heroes bring an E/Me running full dom, even using the long casts like ESurge and Mistrust. I'm not saying that's good, but the fact that such a build is viable at all proves that Fast Casting is not necessary. Besides, mesmers are gonna have Fast Casting - I wasn't about to say "you can bring the mesmer skills but not on a primary mesmer". However, I really did ban a lot of mesmer skills so I'll give something back: unbanned Ineptitude.

    Yeah, Shelter isn't a great skill without Soul Twisting, but the reverse is also true. I thought it would be more interesting to ban Shelter and leave the possibility of something coming up with a different ST build - it could happen! Then again, a build with Shelter but not ST could be cool, but I considered that unlikely enough to not bother complicating the rules.

    Minion bombers aren't exactly super OP, but Death Nova and AotL are definitely over-used. I feel like Death Magic would be too strong if I unbanned one of them (probably AotL) without also banning Putrid Bile... what do you think? EDIT: unbanned AotL; banned Putrid Bile.

    Using AP to spam EVAS is kinda over-used too I suppose, but banning YMLaD and MoP takes a lot of the power out of it, forcing people to come up with interesting alternatives.

    I think the main reason BiP didn't bother me is because it's in Blood Magic - having to pump points into such an under-used attribute is an incentive to bring some other unusual skills, especially since some core skills from the BiP bar (Signet of Lost Souls, Protective was Kaolai, Mend Body and Soul) were banned. However, it does trivialize energy management for the rest of the team. The same applies to Ether Renewal, although the only emo skill I banned was Aegis, so I guess without Shelter that easily filled the gap of "next best". Both skills are now banned!

    Yes, thank you for reminding me about cons - allowing them was a mistake; not sure what I was thinking. I could ban half the skills in the game and cons would still make things too easy. Cons are now banned.

    WTB pcons

    IGN: Shadow Of The Owls

    Edited 2 times, last by Misty (April 15, 2018 at 2:37 AM).

    It's really not clear what you mean, so I made builds which I reckon will fit into your intended challenge. If they don't, well, be more precise next time.

    Also, as Marty said it really adds to motivation and comparability when you specify a goal. As there was none given I decided to go for today's zaishen bounty Rand Stormweaver.

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    Edited 3 times, last by Krschkr: typo (April 18, 2018 at 2:02 AM).

    Ixl Ra Ixl sorry, I meant to specify that attack skills ARE permitted - that's just an exception to the rule, though. All other armor-ignoring damage is banned. Banning instant heal still leaves life steal, regen, health gain, and skills that don't trigger immediately like Ether Renewal, Healing Spring, or Patient Spirit.

    Krschkr yup, looks like your team is all within the rules. I don't know if I can think of an interesting goal every time, but you seem to be very good at selecting one yourself! For anyone else who wants a goal for this challenge: Rand Stormweaver in Hard Mode.

    Quote from Ixl Ra Ixl

    Going through NF right now (very slowly) on my derv with only primary proffession heroes and no eotn in HM. No tomes, (p)cons etc.

    Let's make a challenge of this. Try doing Dasha Vestibule + bonus in HM without EotN (no eotn heroes, skills etc.), no (p)cons, no mercs and only single profession builds and no henchmen!

    Bonus points if no Razah and other heroes you get after that mission or in the new PvE stories like WoC.

    Edit: PRIZE MONEYS! The person who done this mission the fastest will get 1 armbrace from me. Post prove here, leave your ign and this challenge is open until April 26th.

    Edited 2 times, last by Ixl Ra Ixl (April 19, 2018 at 10:31 AM).

    I couldn't be bothered giving my heroes proper equipment (I did buy them 2 runes each, wow), and I sure as hell can't be bothered doing this mission again. Should be very easily beatable if you actually micro the heroes, know the answers to the riddles, and generally have a clue what you're doing.

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    EDIT: just realised Margrid had Disrupting Shot, which is an EotN skill xD I think that's sort of forgivable, but disqualify me from winning the armbrace anyway.

    WTB pcons

    IGN: Shadow Of The Owls

    Edited 2 times, last by Misty (April 19, 2018 at 11:59 AM).

    I'd say the right place would indeed be the events section with a new thread for each challenge. Challenges should have a fixed duration (e.g. one week for easy challenges, one month for hard challenges) after which participants aren't qualified for potential rewards anymore. Funny, I already made one or two ... or in fact 20 ... challenges to unleash on humanity.


    As Misty already contributed to Ra's challenge before I knew of it I added some spice for myself with extra rules:
    1st) Only nightfall and base skills are allowed, none from factions or prophecies.

    2nd) M.O.X., Olias and Zenmai are forbidden.

    3rd) Only skills you'd be able to get (buy or capture without using glitches) at this point of the game are allowed, therefore e.g. no soldier's stance for warriors, as it's not available until Gate of Desolation. Same for heroes, so no master of whispers as we obviously decided to go with Margrid!

    4th) No PvE skills are allowed.

    Please forgive me that I was too lazy to replace the racing beetle with any nightfall pet.


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    Edited once, last by Krschkr: These smileys are a scourge. (April 19, 2018 at 3:12 PM).

    wow you really did make it hard on yourself... and still barely went slower than I did... must be that racing beetle inspiring you to race ;) or maybe I was just delayed because I forgot to give Master of Whispers any points in Blood Magic...

    I look forward to seeing your challenges! Maybe PM Marty Silverblade and get some clear fixed rules (unlike my ones...) ready before releasing them?

    • Official Post

    A new thread for each challenge seems a good idea. With everything in one thread people may be discouraged from attempting older ones due to the perception that everyone has moved on. Also, there's plenty of scope for discussion afterwards (like here, with our talk about what it means for something to be overpowered) so not getting that tangled up with newer stuff will be important.

    As for whether these threads belong here or in the contest section, personally I'm inclined to keep them here. With the people participating it's clear the reward here is the challenge itself, not any financial gain. If people want to offer such things then by all means go ahead, but with the tasks being set and the discussion they're prompting I don't think they're out of place here.

    If someone wants to PM me to work through challenge proposals before submitting them they're welcome to.

    Alright, added 3 challenges. Two are meant to run a while as they're quite tough and may require people to do some quests in preparation. The last one should be done easy and quickly.

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    I'm afraid I can't participate if texmod and toolbox are not allowed. I'm allergic to playing without them. You may be cutting off a big chunk of the community by imposing that rule, or at least making it a lot less fun. Still, it's your challenge and your Bobos, so it's up to you.

    It's up to you. You can participate without accepting all rules, that just means that you'll not be qualified for a Bobo (and not actually doing the challenge).

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