Constructive Feather Ruffeling

1st Official Post

    On the eve of the new version of this site coming to be, I feel like some other changes need to be considered. Recently there has been an influx of problems in the Price Check section of this forum that need to be addressed (again and in a more civil way). There seems to be a huge disconnect between some older egos, yes egos, that seem to be devaluing items left in this game. Not only devaluing items but chasing away any growth of lesser valued items that majority of the player base still go after. There was another thread that attempted to tackle this problem of "Merch, it's worthless" of which literally nothing has come of it. In fact it seems to have become a more prominent problem with people almost using it as joke.

    I will say very straight forward I don't have a solution. But There needs to be a different method as to who can give Price Checks and more validation to people who still actively play this game and participate in the newer market. This isn't the same game that was played and traded in many years back, so items should not and can not be valued in the same way some people still are.

    There also needs to be better (and this isn't the correct word for it but...) policing as to what is being discussed in threads for Price Checks. It is a section for exactly that, a valuation as to what you think an item is worth in the CURRENT market, without your opinion on at what price someone should sell or not sell an item above or below. There seems especially with the most recent very high end items posted in PC that people are giving way more of an opinion than should be allowed in a Price Check.

    Again, I don't have a solution, but there needs to be more of a discussion for one in a better way than what was discussed in the last thread that turned very personal between certain egos. I named the thread Constructive Feather Rustling because it is obvious by the last thread some of you are going to have your, wait for it, Feathers Rustled. Keep the egos out of this and just keep the discussion to how a better system can be implemented. Constructive criticism is a great thing.

    Edited once, last by Tyrant (January 19, 2018 at 12:07 AM).

    oh well that game have changed so much but in the other hand it's still the same.

    Having heard of that situation lastly ing i cannot really say anything since all of you know im pretty much out of it, it doesn't mean that i dont know the difference between wich item worth more and the one that ''worth nothing'' or ''less'' and have my opinion on it, but i dont post or give pc anymore because i dont spend time anymore ing tradind same on forum and im affraing to get people on the wrong way.

    Still, from what read and getting told ing i can give my point on the most recent PC post history.

    Pc like that deserve 2 thread, one in the PC section that is strickly reserved for PRICECHECK, no price no post its that simple AND a thread here in discusion linked to the original PC thread and same for the other way arround. Ofc its adding work for the mods but i think it would give the best of it for the ''seller' / ''buyer'' / Pchecker who can discuss about it freely without getting in the same discussion ''loop'' or ''arguing'' and getting the OP lost in a discussion that he maybe just dont give a fuck about.

    It's my point of view, my era is over, market move to fast for me ...so it's time to sit back, relax and help people arround me.

    Edited once, last by tooburns (January 18, 2018 at 6:27 AM).

    • Official Post

    Price check is for price checking of an item. Discussion is for discussing. If someone feels that there is (has been) too much of the 2nd in the first--let me know and it will be dealt with. I have no issues with folks making threads in discussion about price checks they have had--or items they want to talk more about, PLEASE do! We try to keep most of the Xunlai Market free of talk, which is precisely why the discussion forum came to be. We try to enforce the rules laid down in the stickied post and keep our feathers out of it.
    So make threads here in discussion, if you have issues with other members--send me (or Max, Kevin, Marty) a pm and we will talk with them.
    So let's keep this snowball fight, cold icy and fun! (well you get the idea :P)

    • Official Post

    So I am clearly one of the egos involved here as I am the one who sticks his head over the wall to point out the issues I have had with certain price checks. I'm not sure however if I am being referred to here as the bad guy or not. That doesn't matter really. It's an issue that needs to be addressed.

    It's a tricky situation for me, because I am one of the mods for this site. And it is in my role as a Mod that I challenge certain price checks because while I accept my experience in trading is from a few years ago (however keep in mind that I only retired a year ago), I am very knowledgeable as to how trading and the wider economy works. I am very protective of our community, and because of my experience, I am extremely protective of our economy. Any challenging I do is intended to protect the interests of the economy as a whole, and I try to protect both buyers and sellers, and I try to stay impartial for a good reason. I know this is a losing battle, as the ease of acquiring wealth has changed the market immeasurably in recent years, and is why I retired.

    So do I sit back and watch as people throw random numbers around or do I challenge them in my role as a Mod here, (and with my experience in trading and reputation etc)?. I'd continue to challenge it. Being a Mod has tempered some of my replies, certainly. But for me at least, the bigger picture of our economy as a whole, is more important than being seen as an ego who likes to get involved. Thing is, I do see it from both sides, but the welfare of the economy is directly influenced by price checks, and therefore we need to be cautious and objective.

    I'm not the type to back down either, which I'm sure has led to some of the discussions becoming more.... animated... than usual. However I will always stick up for the bigger picture.

    It's a genuine discussion, and I am interested in others' opinions. Am I wrong to try and keep it realistic, and should I shut up and let the economy eat itself? Or do I stick my head up over the wall and challenge it?

    Max

    The game is long dead, don't let the crazy inflation and warped sense of worth that comes with an incredibly low playerbase trick you into thinking there's still hope left to fix it.

    To be honest, as much as it probably is a joke, as Max has said, we should just shut up and let the economy eat itself, it has been for a very long time already, and there's not much to be done apart from keep to our own circles for trading/pricing etc. At this point it would be best to forget trading was a thing and just focus on enjoying the best game ever made while it's still online since it might not last forever. It is sad, but there really is not a single thing to be done about it. The market has been finite since loot scaling capped it and the playerbase started decreasing. The effects of that are now more prominent then ever.

    Just smile and move on. Not from the game - never - but from the market.

    Ok so how i understand what Tyrant says the problem here isnt the economy or crazy prices, but its the personal agenda/opinion ppl are putting into them.

    How i see the problem here is ppl saying "this is merchant" "you shouldnt sell this item" "theres no price to this" and so on.

    And the FIX! here is that PC section should be only allowed to use numbers, simply u see item, u post What the item can go for in theory if it is for sale, And if u fail to say some range or number on item like that, simply DO NOT POST, PC section isnt for shouting personal opinions but simply giving price checks, and saying Dont sell that item is not Price check, such things should be discussed on Discussion forum instead of price check.

    So. if u dont have clue on the items current value or what some ppl possibly would be willing pay, DO NOT POST ANYTHING, but instead go on discussion and discuss about it there, do not give Price check that doesnt have any number in it or ur own agenda.

    -Pleikki

    @Edit. so yeah i wanted to add for everyone who wants to help the ppl but cant give PCs, Private messages are good option to give advice, like if u feel that "this item should be posted for sale and the value should be determined by that", Send the person PM and say that there, i do that often when i feel i wanna help someone and dont wanna post it.

    Edited once, last by Pleikki (January 18, 2018 at 11:15 AM).

    The os market is complete and utterly shitt due to everyone costumizing everything that is EVER on sale, so you guys are at fault aswell. People buying everything for insane amounts,which I am also guilty of myself sometimes.
    Collecting is almost at an end due the economy beeing stupid and people to greedy.

    I have seen max post in pc's many times without even giving out a numbers,actually ive seen several do that without anyone doing anything.

    As a mod you are supposed to moderate,a mod shouldnt be obnoxious and thinking you are better than everyone else or even say mean things

    • Official Post
    Quote from OS T


    The os market is complete and utterly shitt due to everyone costumizing everything that is EVER on sale, so you guys are at fault aswell. People buying everything for insane amounts,which I am also guilty of myself sometimes.
    Collecting is almost at an end due the economy beeing stupid and people to greedy.

    I have seen max post in pc's many times without even giving out a numbers,actually ive seen several do that without anyone doing anything.

    As a mod you are supposed to moderate,a mod shouldnt be obnoxious and thinking you are better than everyone else or even say mean things

    I thought the goal here was to have a mature discussion without personal attacks and yet once again here you are..

    • Official Post
    Quote from OS T


    I have seen max post in pc's many times without even giving out a numbers,actually ive seen several do that without anyone doing anything.

    As a mod you are supposed to moderate,a mod shouldnt be obnoxious and thinking you are better than everyone else or even say mean things


    Sigh.

    That isn't against the rules. I suggest you re-read them. Nowhere does it say numbers must be given. Some items simply cannot be valued with a number, and to do so is guesswork at best, irresponsible at worst.

    Value the Mona Lisa for me.

    And please please show me where I have been mean!

    Quote from Emma

    I thought the goal here was to have a mature discussion without personal attacks and yet once again here you are..

    its constructive?? (I think thats the right word), critiiscm.
    You know since I have come back in 2015 and been with heated discussions with some people,you guys never say its personal attacks towards those people.
    Only the last sentence isnt mature from my side, but i have gotten alot of personal attacks from certain legacy people and nothing was ever done from mods.

    Thank you Tyrant for posting this thread, and thank you to all who have responded so far agreeing that there is potential room for improvement as it relates to the Price Checking process.

    Sadly, the game economy is what it is, we can't single handily fix that. I have met a lot of players over the years and more recently, both players that have returned to the game and new players that have little experience, and they should feel welcomed. These players (as well as some experienced ones) are getting their feet wet again in the economy, which as we all know, is not easy these days. With this being said, players are asking for a price check because they are not familiar with the value for that specific type of item at the current time (not what it was years ago or even 6 months ago). I still ask for price checks for things that I don't deal in much such as OS shields and OS 20/20 Staves. In return, I also don't PC these items when they are posted cause I know I am not knowledgeable enough. This doesn't stop me from providing PC's on things I am more familiar with.

    My natural input coming from my occupational background is to ask, "what can we do to remediate this opportunity and potential solve or lessen the impact". When I say impact, we need to continue to think about the impact to the player asking for the price check. A value given should be a quantifiable number, whether it is in platinum, ectos, or arms.

    Here are some thoughts on things to consider, not all of these will be agreed upon by everyone, I understand, and in some cases, I may be devil's advocate to provide an option, but opportunities like this one will continue to be a sore spot if nothing is changed.

    *Eliminate Text options from being included in a Price Check Response. My vision here is that the person answering the price check would only have radial button to choose from that would allow 2 clicks, one for the low end of a range, and the other for a high end of the range.

    *Enforce guidelines that Price Check Responders need to be diverse in the type item in the current economy. Maybe each player who wants to be able to price check needs to have a list of the items they are experienced in (some may have mini's, listed, some may not, etc.)

    *Build a "Price Checking Team" that only allows approved Price Checkers to respond

    *Enforce guidelines eliminating the response of "merch", this becomes an opinion, this is why we are here. Maybe the value is only 1k-5k, 1e-10e, that's the value that should be given. If "merch" is the only answer that one person wants to give, it shouldn't be given.

    The above are a few to get this started. Let's continue the discussion around solutions and possible changes. I would also encourage the Moderators to keep other Mods in the loop of this discussion as it may eventually require feedback on feasibility, but in the meantime, let's put our thoughts on paper.

    Agent Chevy

    EDITED: Format of solution options got merged together, broke them back out as intended

    My Legacy Trade Posts: WTSell | WTBuy

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    Note: Definition does not specify rarity or value, although it could be a choice, it's not a requirement.

    Edited once, last by Agent Chevy (January 18, 2018 at 3:26 PM).

    Quote from MaxBorken


    Sigh.

    That isn't against the rules. I suggest you re-read them. Nowhere does it say numbers must be given. Some items simply cannot be valued with a number, and to do so is guesswork at best, irresponsible at worst.

    Value the Mona Lisa for me.

    And please please show me where I have been mean!

    I'm just answering this towards pleikki,saying that quite a few pc's havent always been with numbers. Everything i write isnt towards you, max.
    You know quite well, if you dont thats not my problem.

    I think thats a great suggestion tho, I dont however know how hard that is too implement on this php based board on the pc side of this site.

    • Official Post
    Quote from MaxBorken


    It's a genuine discussion, and I am interested in others' opinions. Am I wrong to try and keep it realistic, and should I shut up and let the economy eat itself? Or do I stick my head up over the wall and challenge it?

    Max

    As we spoke about sometimes before. You think items shouldn't be worth X amount so you base your price checks on what you think said items should be. Should being the keyword here. Items don't follow the should be's anymore. Logical prices are a thing of the past. I vividly remember you more often then not saying: Items are worth what someone would pay for it. I feel that lately you have been trying to hold back prices, not for personal gain, but to keep it, in your words, realistic. And you let your previous quote be forgotten. What I am getting at is you saying price checks are to high, only then we see that the items get sold for the same or even more than the amount you felt was to high.

    To answer your question (and if those are really the only two options you have): Shut up and let the economy eat itself. Realism is a thing from the past and it is time to let go (insert Frozen meme).

    I say all of this with no disrespect, but price checking is not about the economy, it is about what someone could get for his or her item. And if you feel like they aren't capable of getting that price. Then say something, but if you think the price given is crazy and shouldn't be so high, because that's bad for the economy. Then you're not helping the one who asked for a PC.

    Quote from Agent Chevy

    *Eliminate Text options from being included in a Price Check Response. My vision here is that the person answering the price check would only have radial button to choose from that would allow 2 clicks, one for the low end of a range, and the other for a high end of the range.

    *Enforce guidelines that Price Check Responders need to be diverse in the type item in the current economy. Maybe each player who wants to be able to price check needs to have a list of the items they are experienced in (some may have mini's, listed, some may not, etc.)

    *Build a "Price Checking Team" that only allows approved Price Checkers to respond

    *Enforce guidelines eliminating the response of "merch", this becomes an opinion, this is why we are here. Maybe the value is only 1k-5k, 1e-10e, that's the value that should be given. If "merch" is the only answer that one person wants to give, it shouldn't be given.

    *Eliminate Text: This could work if we would implement 2 boxes with options you can choose from: Box 1: Numbers and Box 2: Ecto's or Armbraces (or lockpicks :p)

    *Enforce guidelines that Price Check Responders need to be diverse in the type item in the current economy: Problem is, owning a lot of one type of item doesn't mean you have a clue on value. I own loads of diverse items, and that doesn't mean I am capable of price checking similar ones.

    *Build a "Price Checking Team": This won't work since certain prominent Price-Checkers just can't seem to agree on anything.

    *Enforce guidelines eliminating the response of "merch", this becomes an opinion: Agreed!

    Quote from tooburns


    Pc like that deserve 2 thread, one in the PC section that is strickly reserved for PRICECHECK, no price no post its that simple AND a thread here in discusion linked to the original PC thread and same for the other way arround. Ofc its adding work for the mods but i think it would give the best of it for the ''seller' / ''buyer'' / Pchecker who can discuss about it freely without getting in the same discussion ''loop'' or ''arguing'' and getting the OP lost in a discussion that he maybe just dont give a fuck about.

    This would work, but also if OP could then post more often then once every 24h. Because editing his original post to comment on everyones replies isn't a great way to have a conversation with multiple people. I mean for the sister thread which is for discussions. Price check thread should ofc follow the 24h bump rule.

    Last and least. OS T. I won't bother with getting lost in another argument with you. In the Netherlands we have a saying: "Wat gij niet wilt dat u geschiedt doe dat ook een ander niet". I suggest you copy paste that and look it up. You might learn something.

    I dont think eliminating text needs other then just change of rules, 1week-1month ban depending how much uve done same mistake before, ppl are quick learners, someting like programming such boxes is IMO not worth it, just give somme ban hammmmer

    Edited once, last by Pleikki (January 18, 2018 at 4:27 PM).

    • Official Post

    It's worth pointing out that there are no plans to change the rules. While we always welcome suggestions, as things stand, the rules are not up for change.

    Obviously we will be interested in what is said, but at this stage it's all hypothetical. Keep in mind that we are about to launch a major update to this site which will take a lot of work from Kev Da Dev for the next few weeks.

    • Official Post

    In response to point 1 Agent made (no text and no 'merch' option). sometimes you MUST qualify what you are saying--just putting down 10e or 2-4a will NOT answer the OP questions. Also sometimes MERCH IS the best answer---there are some items that are really just not worth even posting in the price check section (90% of drops these days are not worth picking up let alone carrying them TO the merchant), and sometimes you need to qualify why its a merchant item: non max, white, stupid mods, etc so that the person receiving the price check will learn (ok, if its non-max with this mod I do not need to ask for a price check in the future....), also for those reading the threads in the future to see: UserA asked for a very similar item to be pc'd 2 months ago....I see that its worth 50e...so I should be able to put it up for sell with that as a starting bid!.
    Also sometimes a number just cant be put on an item....how much is a kanaxai worth these days? or an UNDED panda?? (sorry these are examples of which I know are very high prices so I am using them as examples).

    A price check team would be nice, but remember not everyone has the time to devote to doing this task and not all who do price checks are good with all areas (as has been mentioned), so adding someone to that team would require our current legacy team to basically interview each candidate and make sure they are good in every area---not an easy task nor one that our current team signed up for. Yes it would be nice to have a group of price checkers, but I just dont see it happening with the state of the game etc.

    I do understand the difficulty of forming a price checking team, was more a less sharing a "reach for the stars" option.

    Regarding the point of "Merch", this is what raises the debate, the reason behind someone saying to merch is not the same as someone else. Just because one person wouldn't buy it or sell it, doesn't mean it should be merched. I have lost opportunities to buy things that I personally would like to have (as I am not influenced on what other people like) because someone was recommended to merch.

    Throwing out another option, if the recommendation to Merch will stay, can there be a Dislike capability (or maybe there is and I have never used it). If the original poster sees that someone recommended to merch, but 3 people disagree, that should allow that person to make a decision to keep or merch.

    Since this may come up, I may dislike someone's recommendation to merch, but not post a PC because I am interested in the item. I have always tried to remain no-bios by not providing a pc for an item I am interested in, that can sometimes be perceived as inappropriate.

    So just more thoughts on paper. I hope some considerations are made, I understand it was stated above that "rules will not change", well I think something needs to change, and hopefully a collaborative effort here can get us to the right solution.

    My Legacy Trade Posts: WTSell | WTBuy

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    Definition of "Collection": An Accumulation of objects gathered for study, comparison, or exhibition or as a hobby.

    Note: Definition does not specify rarity or value, although it could be a choice, it's not a requirement.

    Edited once, last by Agent Chevy (January 18, 2018 at 7:19 PM).

    • Official Post

    no, they would like to remove it, however, it will remain---merching items is about 90% of items picked up---people just need to know when to sell to him or when to sell to others, that is part of the price check forum's purpose and it will not change. There will always be items that will be merch only (see: white non max no mod low level high req items...or just about any item dropped in low level areas).
    Until everyone who plays knows what is valuable to everyone else there will always be items that price check as merch (since the criteria for the first part can never occur).

    Here is where there is a difference, you have referenced "...or just about any item dropped in low level areas" as being a viable merch items, some people on here will agree, others will not. There is a collectors market for some of these types of items, this is why it is an issue that diversity is not being considered. Just because one person doesn't collect one thing, doesn't mean no one does. There is a lot of "silo thinking" that occurs on this site which is very disappointing.

    My Legacy Trade Posts: WTSell | WTBuy

    My Collections (Working Progress): Chevy's Shiny Relics

    Other Fun (Discontinued, Historical info available): Poll for Favorite 2021 Drop

    Definition of "Collection": An Accumulation of objects gathered for study, comparison, or exhibition or as a hobby.

    Note: Definition does not specify rarity or value, although it could be a choice, it's not a requirement.

    Price checking has always been hit and miss, but more so due to the volatility of the market in the past couple years.

    Certain categories of oldschool items cannot be accurately estimated due to the fact they might be the only circulating one around.
    In this day and age of guild wars these valuable items will be determined by the buyer/seller, price checking these certain items is only to confirm its rarity, a rough estimate from recent anecdotes should be taken lightly.

    Personal interests like wanting to buy the item or inflating certain categories of item values sometimes happens quite often, nobody should ever take price checks accurately at this stage of the games life.

    There shouldn't be a change of rules but perhaps better enforcement, for example i saw the 1st post of a price check that was blatantly undervalued, hours later the original post was edited and the item was sold despite several posts later estimating the value to be much higher.

    • Official Post

    how exactly would you enforce people low balling price checks?

    and I will stand by my statement of MOST items (white, non max, bad req) dropped in low level areas are merch food...yeah, there might be one or two collectors out there for them, but unless the person who happened to have it drop for them can find that individual and get a few plat/ecto for said item .....

    Just one point small one,

    recently well last few month im having fun with [PuPu] one thing that i can see is there is a lots of new players and less fortunate players that are still arround and those people have to be taken care off as well. So as i said before to someone its easy for the big guy (me included) to say MERCHHHHHHHHHHHH to a shield that worth 10k maybee. But for some people 10k mean something and there is people that have no mney that need that said shield. They dont have 10-15-50a to spend on a perfect one or a ''os'' one. So yes the inscrptabable q10 tac zodiac shield worth selling for 10k

    Luv u all

    Ok, I just got a chance to read through this and put a little response together. I want this to also be a disclaimer that the original intent of this thread is not a bash the mods type thing. I made it clear that this is intended to be constructive and to open conversation in a way that isn't people just bashing one another, so i hope this isn't taken personally.

    I also want to point out im an idiot because the saying is Ruffle some Feathers, not rustling some feathers....facepalm. editing the title

    Max, first and foremost I didn't name names or mean specifically you in my original post because I wanted this to be objective in what we are talking about. And also because it isnt just you. I will be first to say it is clearly not just you and I am also not saying anyone is a "good guy/bad guy". With that being said, with you being a mod, I do think there are some conflicts in what you are saying above in this thread and how you might go about looking at ones role as a mod. Or the general role of a Moderator as a whole. Ones job as a mod isn't to "protect" anything other than the integrity of the rules set in place of the forum. Not its users, not the economy (which you literally can't protect), or anything else outside of what the rules say you should be enforcing. That is literally the job of any moderator, nothing more and nothing less. Again, this isn't a bash on you, but this is why I used the word Egos before. I feel like even just you saying you are trying to "protect an economy" discredits you from being unbiased as to what you think the economy SHOULD look like vs how it ACTUALLY is, which in return will be biased as to how you perceive what some items are valued at now a days, which simply can't happen.

    Which leads into the next point, this isn't about an economy being alive or dead.. People have been saying this literally since the beginning of time. If you want a more specific example, people lost all hope for things being worth anything when inscriptions were even just a rumor. Would you say there hasn't been an economy since 2006? No, you wouldn't and literally can't because there clearly has been. Maybe not the SAME economy, or one that people specifically like, but there has been and still undoubtedly is an alive economy. Which is where people, I feel, need to be more understanding of different markets within the economy and adapt to the changes of the markets as a whole. There are a million different opinions on what the markets SHOULD look like, but that isn't any indication of how things ACTUALLY are or how things even work.

    Cosy, You literally just discredited the very topic at hand without even seemingly understanding it. You have literal evidence presented to you, that what you are saying isn't very true, ie: what Chevy said. There ARE still new players in this game and markets out there for collections/collectors (such as Chevy) that still value items that are how you call it "white non max no mod low level high req items...or just about any item dropped in low level areas)."....You lumped quite a few different types of items into what your very disconnected view is of what is valuable to some people. low level items does not equal white non max no mod level items. This quite honestly, again not to be harsh, but seemingly goes to show the disconnectedness of what seems to be some people of this forum at this stage of the game.

    Again this isn't an attack on the mods, but it is seeming more and more of a lack of willingness to either stay better informed or, as ZXC said, enforcement problem, than anything else. The lack of even understanding what still sells by people who clearly don't even play the game anymore and lack of willingness to change and adapt to how items are perceived seems to be quite prevalent

    To the point above about there being less and less amazing weapons on the market, i just want to add that this notion directly adds to what my point is. With there being less and less "q7/q8/qwhatever OmGzor amazing" items, that only leads more and more people to find different ways to collect. That's adapting to the times. Making those "lower less valuable not so omg amazing" weapons have more of a market. No one is saying to take away people being able to say "Just Merch it" about something, but rather maybe people this late in the game need to broaden their scope or be better informed as to what has become more valuable since there is seemingly less traditionally valuable items left.

    I don't like using people specifically, because it's a bigger problem than just one or two people, but again this isn't a lets bash Max and Cosy post. Just being more direct and trying to find some middle ground here for a better solution.

    • Official Post

    my example was of an item that 99% of the players would merchant.....and that only a rare one or two players might actually collect....for example the other day I was playing through an area, and some days it seems that certain weapons seem to drop, I got 5 of the almost exact same ax! I call this day an ax day, I have had multiple days where this has occurred (the reason why I started naming them). I sold them all to the merchant.
    It was an EXAMPLE of what MOST people would merchant the second part clarifying the first part--as low level areas seem to drop those weapons, see? I was not clumping together, as you put it. (you are more likely to get a non-max white drop in a low level area)
    Anyways. I do not do price checks of weapons (rarely I do), I do, however, moderate. I do read all of the price checks as part of that moderation (and have been doing so for many years). I would like a better method for doing price checks as well. The 'economy' that you say, is currently around it is almost impossible to keep up to date--it would be an around the clock job to keep up with what everyone thinks is prized, and I highly doubt there are many players left that have that kind of time to put to this, so what we are left with is people who are trying to keep up when they have time. Yes, this has left some people out of date (which is also the reason for the price check section), and I dont see this changing anytime soon. It would be like trying to hold the wind in your hand or stopping time to keep everyone up to date.
    What do you want us to do besides what we are currently doing to moderate? We do enforce the rules, but we dont want to become the kind of mods that everyone hated (if you were around during the old guru days you know who I am speaking about). I dont want to ban everyone in a thread that gets out of hand---that is a bit too harsh, we allow for this, but we still need to make sure that those kind of threads are the extremely rare occurrences. So if you have ideas, let the mod team know.

    I'll start off by saying that I haven't read this whole thread. I started but had to stop pretty quickly.

    As far as "non-numerical" price checks go, I'm a pretty firm believer in the idea that -- at least sometimes -- "merch" and "priceless" are the most accurate PCs.

    If you really want to tie people's hands, why not have every PC thread be a poll? People could vote for certain price intervals (e.g., 0-1k (aka merch), 2k-10k, 10-25k, 25-100k, and so on). You could set it up so that the price intervals are adjusted according to whether the person requesting the PC indicates that the item is high-end, mid-range, or common. A tiered system would provide better "resolution" on the PCs (e.g., no need for low intervals on a high-end item, more choices ranging into thousands of armbraces...and vice versa for common items). The results could be shown graphically as a distribution at the top of the thread.

    You could also make it so that the results won't appear until a certain number of responses (like, uh, 5, for example) from unique users are collected. That would lessen the impact of the first PC, which always seems to carry undue weight.

    I just think people have to get over it. PC threads have always been a mixed bag at best. If you ask people for opinions, that's what you're gonna get.

    EDIT: I just skimmed back through the thread and noticed that OS T proposed an idea that's similar to this one in some ways. Seems like a reasonable way to go if the goal is to strip people of the ability to use their words.

    I will also confess like Kromp that I did not read the walls of text in this thread. But I am going to offer my opinion anyways. My opinion is that the price checking system is fine. It's dead simple. You post your item you want priced in your thread, and people comment with prices and other comments. What could you possibly want to change? If I came back to guild wars after 6 years of being inactive and posted a priceless item to the price check thread, I would want to hear that it was priceless. Likewise if I posted merch crap, I would want to know that. Or anything in between.

    I don't agree with the idea of voting for price intervals. That doesn't work if the owner hasn't been playing guild wars for 6 years. The hyperinflation we have seen destroys all sense of rationality in prices and an owner from 6 years ago who had an item worth 100e then would have no idea that the same item is probably worth 100a+ today without being told in a price check thread.

    Lastly, I also agree with Kromp that price checks aren't perfect. But you know what? That's life. Guild wars these days is such a sparse economy that there is a lot of variance in prices. So price checks by definition can't be very accurate. So we can get rid of price checking altogether, or just leave it how it is. Getting rid of the ability to use words would just be foolish.

    Small FIX i can think IS add banner to Top of all pc threads And section someting like "Caution! Price checks are only guesses ppl are giving about current state of prices. Items can And Will sell possible alot lower or alot higher then what IS Price checked, so Please! Allways get several opinions about everything"

    But as Said. I think saying 0-1k IS better then Merchant. And The person "saying to Merchant" could say some Range "im merching everything below 100e etc" If The word stays

    Edited once, last by Pleikki (January 19, 2018 at 6:57 AM).

    Quote from Surge goes pre

    I don't agree with the idea of voting for price intervals. That doesn't work if the owner hasn't been playing guild wars for 6 years. The hyperinflation we have seen destroys all sense of rationality in prices and an owner from 6 years ago who had an item worth 100e then would have no idea that the same item is probably worth 100a+ today without being told in a price check thread.

    Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear about the idea that the price intervals would be supplied by the site, not tbe PCer. So if I was coming back to GW after a long hiatus and wanted a PC on an item that I thought was mid-range, I could post the item and check the "mid-range" button. This would automatically generate a set of price intervals that correspond to market prices of mid-range items in today's terms, even if those terms are astronomical compared to the last time I played.

    In addition, the categories "move to.high end" and "move to low end" could be options to accommodate for bigger shifts in the market.

    I just wanted to clarify the idea. I'm not srguing or even suggesting that such contortions are necessary. PC threads are just PC threads. They've been full of shit since Day 1. Buyer beware (and seller, too!).

    • Official Post

    I like the idea of ranges, its a good idea which I will let roam my unconscious mind for a while to see what it morphs into.

    Though I do need to point out an elephant that has been roaming around (and spotted by a few). What some players may think we you say merch----I have seen where people think that items under 10e are merch (what's ecto at now 8 or 9 plat?....so that would put an item just under 100 plat); for some people 10e is a LOT of money (I put myself in that class), merch for me is items that wont even get what mr merchant would pay for them (so under 500 gold for the most part). An item worth 1 or 2k is not merch to me, a hard sell perhaps, but not merch. So I think we need to clarify our terminology especially on things like merch, high end, etc and that would help out a great deal. (I know we had a thread on guru with all the terminology..will see if we can get that one moved over....)

    And the disclaimer about price checking being only an idea of what you might expect to start your items at (which I mentioned a long time ago in the minipet thread)...not the top, but a place to start. We also have to remember that sellers what to get the most for their items, while buyers are still looking for a good deal---we have lots of users who are primarily one or the other while some are both. We need to strike a middle ground so that no one feels ripped off when the sell or buy--and this can be helped by getting a good range when an item is price checked.

    so some good points so far!

    Quote from cosyfiep

    Though I do need to point out an elephant that has been roaming around (and spotted by a few). What some players may think we you say merch----I have seen where people think that items under 10e are merch (what's ecto at now 8 or 9 plat?....so that would put an item just under 100 plat); for some people 10e is a LOT of money (I put myself in that class), merch for me is items that wont even get what mr merchant would pay for them (so under 500 gold for the most part). An item worth 1 or 2k is not merch to me, a hard sell perhaps, but not merch.

    Thank you Cosy for using the above example, I would like to echo this point. Just last night, I was asked by a new alliance member who had come back to the game how much a specific Q9 20/10 staff was, when I said around 15e-20e, their response was "wow, that much, thank you very much". If that item was posted on legacy, there was a chance they would get a "merch" depending on who responded to the price check. This is what I think should be avoided.

    My Legacy Trade Posts: WTSell | WTBuy

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    Quote from Captain Krompdown

    Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear about the idea that the price intervals would be supplied by the site, not tbe PCer. So if I was coming back to GW after a long hiatus and wanted a PC on an item that I thought was mid-range, I could post the item and check the "mid-range" button. This would automatically generate a set of price intervals that correspond to market prices of mid-range items in today's terms, even if those terms are astronomical compared to the last time I played.

    In addition, the categories "move to.high end" and "move to low end" could be options to accommodate for bigger shifts in the market.

    I just wanted to clarify the idea. I'm not srguing or even suggesting that such contortions are necessary. PC threads are just PC threads. They've been full of shit since Day 1. Buyer beware (and seller, too!).

    I think thats a great category to bring back from gwguru, for a while it had high end and low end section.

    • Official Post

    Yeah, guru had a few good ideas, but when viewer-ship declined (and moderators became more scarce) some forums were put to rest--the high end one was one of those (it didnt help that guru's database was slower than snot at that time either---...when pages took 30 seconds or more to move...ah well, nevermind), and then remember the prefixes?
    If we were to bring it back 100e is no longer high end, heck, some people think that is the merch category! So let us mull that one over as well.

    I say keep it simple (maybe price intervals without the high/medium/low-end categories works more easily) or, even better (and as others have suggested), do nothing.

    In either case, I do think that saying "merch" in a pc is very confusing to others. Specifically, it can mean two very different things:

    1) It can mean "This item is worth somewhere between 0-1k."

    2) It can mean that the item isn't worth the time and effort to sell on the open market *to the person providing the PC*. When a person says "merch" in this sense, they're not talking about the value of the item. They're talking about the value of the value of the item to them. If an item is worth 10k but 10k isn't worth anything to a player, they'll suggest merching a 10k item -- often without acknowledging the fact that the item itself might be worth 10k. I think Burnsy has made this point already. In that sense, "merch" is an irresponsible and egocentric price check. It's not a statement about the value of the item...it's a statement about the value of the value of the item to a specific player. That is irresponsible, egocentric, and not helpful.

    So, I think it would be a good idea if people stopped saying "merch" in their responses to PC threads...but legislating it away or re-vamping how PC threads work (instead, for example, just asking what someone means when they say "merch") seems kind of heavy-handed and unnecessary. Let's be big boys and girls.

    I essentially agree with everything Kromp is saying above. Oddly enough I had the exact same idea of the range/vote situation which I expressed I think to toobs ing. Which i still think is a great idea, but i also understand it's not exactly needed and maybe not exactly be the easiest thing to implement.

    Again the point of even posting this thread was to have the general conversation about what improvements, if any, can be made. Even just the dialogue can and hopefully will prove to be an improvement in general. There is nothing wrong in having these types of conversations and in fact is often needed as long as it always stays constructive.