Constructive Feather Ruffeling

oh well that game have changed so much but in the other hand it's still the same.

Having heard of that situation lastly ing i cannot really say anything since all of you know im pretty much out of it, it doesn't mean that i dont know the difference between wich item worth more and the one that ''worth nothing'' or ''less'' and have my opinion on it, but i dont post or give pc anymore because i dont spend time anymore ing tradind same on forum and im affraing to get people on the wrong way.

Still, from what read and getting told ing i can give my point on the most recent PC post history.

Pc like that deserve 2 thread, one in the PC section that is strickly reserved for PRICECHECK, no price no post its that simple AND a thread here in discusion linked to the original PC thread and same for the other way arround. Ofc its adding work for the mods but i think it would give the best of it for the ''seller' / ''buyer'' / Pchecker who can discuss about it freely without getting in the same discussion ''loop'' or ''arguing'' and getting the OP lost in a discussion that he maybe just dont give a fuck about.

It's my point of view, my era is over, market move to fast for me ...so it's time to sit back, relax and help people arround me.

The game is long dead, don't let the crazy inflation and warped sense of worth that comes with an incredibly low playerbase trick you into thinking there's still hope left to fix it.

To be honest, as much as it probably is a joke, as Max has said, we should just shut up and let the economy eat itself, it has been for a very long time already, and there's not much to be done apart from keep to our own circles for trading/pricing etc. At this point it would be best to forget trading was a thing and just focus on enjoying the best game ever made while it's still online since it might not last forever. It is sad, but there really is not a single thing to be done about it. The market has been finite since loot scaling capped it and the playerbase started decreasing. The effects of that are now more prominent then ever.

Just smile and move on. Not from the game - never - but from the market.

Ok so how i understand what Tyrant says the problem here isnt the economy or crazy prices, but its the personal agenda/opinion ppl are putting into them.

How i see the problem here is ppl saying "this is merchant" "you shouldnt sell this item" "theres no price to this" and so on.

And the FIX! here is that PC section should be only allowed to use numbers, simply u see item, u post What the item can go for in theory if it is for sale, And if u fail to say some range or number on item like that, simply DO NOT POST, PC section isnt for shouting personal opinions but simply giving price checks, and saying Dont sell that item is not Price check, such things should be discussed on Discussion forum instead of price check.

So. if u dont have clue on the items current value or what some ppl possibly would be willing pay, DO NOT POST ANYTHING, but instead go on discussion and discuss about it there, do not give Price check that doesnt have any number in it or ur own agenda.

-Pleikki

@Edit. so yeah i wanted to add for everyone who wants to help the ppl but cant give PCs, Private messages are good option to give advice, like if u feel that "this item should be posted for sale and the value should be determined by that", Send the person PM and say that there, i do that often when i feel i wanna help someone and dont wanna post it.

The os market is complete and utterly shitt due to everyone costumizing everything that is EVER on sale, so you guys are at fault aswell. People buying everything for insane amounts,which I am also guilty of myself sometimes.
Collecting is almost at an end due the economy beeing stupid and people to greedy.

I have seen max post in pc's many times without even giving out a numbers,actually ive seen several do that without anyone doing anything.

As a mod you are supposed to moderate,a mod shouldnt be obnoxious and thinking you are better than everyone else or even say mean things

Quote from Emma

I thought the goal here was to have a mature discussion without personal attacks and yet once again here you are..

its constructive?? (I think thats the right word), critiiscm.
You know since I have come back in 2015 and been with heated discussions with some people,you guys never say its personal attacks towards those people.
Only the last sentence isnt mature from my side, but i have gotten alot of personal attacks from certain legacy people and nothing was ever done from mods.

Thank you Tyrant for posting this thread, and thank you to all who have responded so far agreeing that there is potential room for improvement as it relates to the Price Checking process.

Sadly, the game economy is what it is, we can't single handily fix that. I have met a lot of players over the years and more recently, both players that have returned to the game and new players that have little experience, and they should feel welcomed. These players (as well as some experienced ones) are getting their feet wet again in the economy, which as we all know, is not easy these days. With this being said, players are asking for a price check because they are not familiar with the value for that specific type of item at the current time (not what it was years ago or even 6 months ago). I still ask for price checks for things that I don't deal in much such as OS shields and OS 20/20 Staves. In return, I also don't PC these items when they are posted cause I know I am not knowledgeable enough. This doesn't stop me from providing PC's on things I am more familiar with.

My natural input coming from my occupational background is to ask, "what can we do to remediate this opportunity and potential solve or lessen the impact". When I say impact, we need to continue to think about the impact to the player asking for the price check. A value given should be a quantifiable number, whether it is in platinum, ectos, or arms.

Here are some thoughts on things to consider, not all of these will be agreed upon by everyone, I understand, and in some cases, I may be devil's advocate to provide an option, but opportunities like this one will continue to be a sore spot if nothing is changed.

*Eliminate Text options from being included in a Price Check Response. My vision here is that the person answering the price check would only have radial button to choose from that would allow 2 clicks, one for the low end of a range, and the other for a high end of the range.

*Enforce guidelines that Price Check Responders need to be diverse in the type item in the current economy. Maybe each player who wants to be able to price check needs to have a list of the items they are experienced in (some may have mini's, listed, some may not, etc.)

*Build a "Price Checking Team" that only allows approved Price Checkers to respond

*Enforce guidelines eliminating the response of "merch", this becomes an opinion, this is why we are here. Maybe the value is only 1k-5k, 1e-10e, that's the value that should be given. If "merch" is the only answer that one person wants to give, it shouldn't be given.

The above are a few to get this started. Let's continue the discussion around solutions and possible changes. I would also encourage the Moderators to keep other Mods in the loop of this discussion as it may eventually require feedback on feasibility, but in the meantime, let's put our thoughts on paper.

Agent Chevy

EDITED: Format of solution options got merged together, broke them back out as intended

Quote from MaxBorken

Sigh.

That isn't against the rules. I suggest you re-read them. Nowhere does it say numbers must be given. Some items simply cannot be valued with a number, and to do so is guesswork at best, irresponsible at worst.

Value the Mona Lisa for me.

And please please show me where I have been mean!

I'm just answering this towards pleikki,saying that quite a few pc's havent always been with numbers. Everything i write isnt towards you, max.
You know quite well, if you dont thats not my problem.

Quote from Agent Chevy

Thank you Tyrant for posting this thread, and thank you to all who have responded so far agreeing that there is potential room for improvement as it relates to the Price Checking process.

Sadly, the game economy is what it is, we can't single handily fix that. I have met a lot of players over the years and more recently, both players that have returned to the game and new players that have little experience, and they should feel welcomed. These players (as well as some experienced ones) are getting their feet wet again in the economy, which as we all know, is not easy these days. With this being said, players are asking for a price check because they are not familiar with the value for that specific type of item at the current time (not what it was years ago or even 6 months ago). I still ask for price checks for things that I don't deal in much such as OS shields and OS 20/20 Staves. In return, I also don't PC these items when they are posted cause I know I am not knowledgeable enough. This doesn't stop me from providing PC's on things I am more familiar with.

My natural input coming from my occupational background is to ask, "what can we do to remediate this opportunity and potential solve or lessen the impact". When I say impact, we need to continue to think about the impact to the player asking for the price check. A value given should be a quantifiable number, whether it is in platinum, ectos, or arms.

Here are some thoughts on things to consider, not all of these will be agreed upon by everyone, I understand, and in some cases, I may be devil's advocate to provide an option, but opportunities like this one will continue to be a sore spot if nothing is changed.

*Eliminate Text options from being included in a Price Check Response. My vision here is that the person answering the price check would only have radial button to choose from that would allow 2 clicks, one for the low end of a range, and the other for a high end of the range.*Enforce guidelines that Price Check Responders need to be diverse in the type item in the current economy. Maybe each player who wants to be able to price check needs to have a list of the items they are experienced in (some may have mini's, listed, some may not, etc.)*Build a "Price Checking Team" that only allows approved Price Checkers to respond*Enforce guidelines eliminating the response of "merch", this becomes an opinion, this is why we are here. Maybe the value is only 1k-5k, 1e-10e, that's the value that should be given. If "merch" is the only answer that one person wants to give, it shouldn't be given.

The above are a few to get this started. Let's continue the discussion around solutions and possible changes. I would also encourage the Moderators to keep other Mods in the loop of this discussion as it may eventually require feedback on feasibility, but in the meantime, let's put our thoughts on paper.

Agent Chevy

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I think thats a great suggestion tho, I dont however know how hard that is too implement on this php based board on the pc side of this site.

I dont think eliminating text needs other then just change of rules, 1week-1month ban depending how much uve done same mistake before, ppl are quick learners, someting like programming such boxes is IMO not worth it, just give somme ban hammmmer

I do understand the difficulty of forming a price checking team, was more a less sharing a "reach for the stars" option.

Regarding the point of "Merch", this is what raises the debate, the reason behind someone saying to merch is not the same as someone else. Just because one person wouldn't buy it or sell it, doesn't mean it should be merched. I have lost opportunities to buy things that I personally would like to have (as I am not influenced on what other people like) because someone was recommended to merch.

Throwing out another option, if the recommendation to Merch will stay, can there be a Dislike capability (or maybe there is and I have never used it). If the original poster sees that someone recommended to merch, but 3 people disagree, that should allow that person to make a decision to keep or merch.

Since this may come up, I may dislike someone's recommendation to merch, but not post a PC because I am interested in the item. I have always tried to remain no-bios by not providing a pc for an item I am interested in, that can sometimes be perceived as inappropriate.

So just more thoughts on paper. I hope some considerations are made, I understand it was stated above that "rules will not change", well I think something needs to change, and hopefully a collaborative effort here can get us to the right solution.

really?
you guys gonna make the word merch not possible to write or something crazy like that?
I cant even formulate words to express myself towards those who think that should be implemented.

Here is where there is a difference, you have referenced "...or just about any item dropped in low level areas" as being a viable merch items, some people on here will agree, others will not. There is a collectors market for some of these types of items, this is why it is an issue that diversity is not being considered. Just because one person doesn't collect one thing, doesn't mean no one does. There is a lot of "silo thinking" that occurs on this site which is very disappointing.

Price checking has always been hit and miss, but more so due to the volatility of the market in the past couple years.

Certain categories of oldschool items cannot be accurately estimated due to the fact they might be the only circulating one around.
In this day and age of guild wars these valuable items will be determined by the buyer/seller, price checking these certain items is only to confirm its rarity, a rough estimate from recent anecdotes should be taken lightly.

Personal interests like wanting to buy the item or inflating certain categories of item values sometimes happens quite often, nobody should ever take price checks accurately at this stage of the games life.

There shouldn't be a change of rules but perhaps better enforcement, for example i saw the 1st post of a price check that was blatantly undervalued, hours later the original post was edited and the item was sold despite several posts later estimating the value to be much higher.

Just one point small one,

recently well last few month im having fun with [PuPu] one thing that i can see is there is a lots of new players and less fortunate players that are still arround and those people have to be taken care off as well. So as i said before to someone its easy for the big guy (me included) to say MERCHHHHHHHHHHHH to a shield that worth 10k maybee. But for some people 10k mean something and there is people that have no mney that need that said shield. They dont have 10-15-50a to spend on a perfect one or a ''os'' one. So yes the inscrptabable q10 tac zodiac shield worth selling for 10k

Luv u all

I'll start off by saying that I haven't read this whole thread. I started but had to stop pretty quickly.

As far as "non-numerical" price checks go, I'm a pretty firm believer in the idea that -- at least sometimes -- "merch" and "priceless" are the most accurate PCs.

If you really want to tie people's hands, why not have every PC thread be a poll? People could vote for certain price intervals (e.g., 0-1k (aka merch), 2k-10k, 10-25k, 25-100k, and so on). You could set it up so that the price intervals are adjusted according to whether the person requesting the PC indicates that the item is high-end, mid-range, or common. A tiered system would provide better "resolution" on the PCs (e.g., no need for low intervals on a high-end item, more choices ranging into thousands of armbraces...and vice versa for common items). The results could be shown graphically as a distribution at the top of the thread.

You could also make it so that the results won't appear until a certain number of responses (like, uh, 5, for example) from unique users are collected. That would lessen the impact of the first PC, which always seems to carry undue weight.

I just think people have to get over it. PC threads have always been a mixed bag at best. If you ask people for opinions, that's what you're gonna get.

EDIT: I just skimmed back through the thread and noticed that OS T proposed an idea that's similar to this one in some ways. Seems like a reasonable way to go if the goal is to strip people of the ability to use their words.

I will also confess like Kromp that I did not read the walls of text in this thread. But I am going to offer my opinion anyways. My opinion is that the price checking system is fine. It's dead simple. You post your item you want priced in your thread, and people comment with prices and other comments. What could you possibly want to change? If I came back to guild wars after 6 years of being inactive and posted a priceless item to the price check thread, I would want to hear that it was priceless. Likewise if I posted merch crap, I would want to know that. Or anything in between.

I don't agree with the idea of voting for price intervals. That doesn't work if the owner hasn't been playing guild wars for 6 years. The hyperinflation we have seen destroys all sense of rationality in prices and an owner from 6 years ago who had an item worth 100e then would have no idea that the same item is probably worth 100a+ today without being told in a price check thread.

Lastly, I also agree with Kromp that price checks aren't perfect. But you know what? That's life. Guild wars these days is such a sparse economy that there is a lot of variance in prices. So price checks by definition can't be very accurate. So we can get rid of price checking altogether, or just leave it how it is. Getting rid of the ability to use words would just be foolish.

Small FIX i can think IS add banner to Top of all pc threads And section someting like "Caution! Price checks are only guesses ppl are giving about current state of prices. Items can And Will sell possible alot lower or alot higher then what IS Price checked, so Please! Allways get several opinions about everything"

But as Said. I think saying 0-1k IS better then Merchant. And The person "saying to Merchant" could say some Range "im merching everything below 100e etc" If The word stays

Quote from Surge goes pre

I don't agree with the idea of voting for price intervals. That doesn't work if the owner hasn't been playing guild wars for 6 years. The hyperinflation we have seen destroys all sense of rationality in prices and an owner from 6 years ago who had an item worth 100e then would have no idea that the same item is probably worth 100a+ today without being told in a price check thread.

Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear about the idea that the price intervals would be supplied by the site, not tbe PCer. So if I was coming back to GW after a long hiatus and wanted a PC on an item that I thought was mid-range, I could post the item and check the "mid-range" button. This would automatically generate a set of price intervals that correspond to market prices of mid-range items in today's terms, even if those terms are astronomical compared to the last time I played.

In addition, the categories "move to.high end" and "move to low end" could be options to accommodate for bigger shifts in the market.

I just wanted to clarify the idea. I'm not srguing or even suggesting that such contortions are necessary. PC threads are just PC threads. They've been full of shit since Day 1. Buyer beware (and seller, too!).

Quote from cosyfiep

Though I do need to point out an elephant that has been roaming around (and spotted by a few). What some players may think we you say merch----I have seen where people think that items under 10e are merch (what's ecto at now 8 or 9 plat?....so that would put an item just under 100 plat); for some people 10e is a LOT of money (I put myself in that class), merch for me is items that wont even get what mr merchant would pay for them (so under 500 gold for the most part). An item worth 1 or 2k is not merch to me, a hard sell perhaps, but not merch.

Thank you Cosy for using the above example, I would like to echo this point. Just last night, I was asked by a new alliance member who had come back to the game how much a specific Q9 20/10 staff was, when I said around 15e-20e, their response was "wow, that much, thank you very much". If that item was posted on legacy, there was a chance they would get a "merch" depending on who responded to the price check. This is what I think should be avoided.

Quote from Captain Krompdown

Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear about the idea that the price intervals would be supplied by the site, not tbe PCer. So if I was coming back to GW after a long hiatus and wanted a PC on an item that I thought was mid-range, I could post the item and check the "mid-range" button. This would automatically generate a set of price intervals that correspond to market prices of mid-range items in today's terms, even if those terms are astronomical compared to the last time I played.

In addition, the categories "move to.high end" and "move to low end" could be options to accommodate for bigger shifts in the market.

I just wanted to clarify the idea. I'm not srguing or even suggesting that such contortions are necessary. PC threads are just PC threads. They've been full of shit since Day 1. Buyer beware (and seller, too!).

I think thats a great category to bring back from gwguru, for a while it had high end and low end section.

I say keep it simple (maybe price intervals without the high/medium/low-end categories works more easily) or, even better (and as others have suggested), do nothing.

In either case, I do think that saying "merch" in a pc is very confusing to others. Specifically, it can mean two very different things:

1) It can mean "This item is worth somewhere between 0-1k."

2) It can mean that the item isn't worth the time and effort to sell on the open market *to the person providing the PC*. When a person says "merch" in this sense, they're not talking about the value of the item. They're talking about the value of the value of the item to them. If an item is worth 10k but 10k isn't worth anything to a player, they'll suggest merching a 10k item -- often without acknowledging the fact that the item itself might be worth 10k. I think Burnsy has made this point already. In that sense, "merch" is an irresponsible and egocentric price check. It's not a statement about the value of the item...it's a statement about the value of the value of the item to a specific player. That is irresponsible, egocentric, and not helpful.

So, I think it would be a good idea if people stopped saying "merch" in their responses to PC threads...but legislating it away or re-vamping how PC threads work (instead, for example, just asking what someone means when they say "merch") seems kind of heavy-handed and unnecessary. Let's be big boys and girls.