What is a PC? Philosophy to calm everyone down - hopefully :)

1st Official Post

    Since there has (once again) been a thread in the PC section, that got terribly out of hand, I'd like to attempt to give a proper definition as well as say one or two words about the economy and conclude on why these vivid arguments occur.

    I do realize that probably there will be people, who have the urge to defend themselves because they feel offended, however I'd love those to hesitate and reason about what I say on a neutral rather than personal perspective.

    A price check should represent the value of the item in question on the market.

    Thus it should give an amount that the seller may ask for on the market and be likely to be successful with (means he finds a buyer) AND at same time an amount that a interested person could try to buy the item for and likely be successful (means he finds a seller). Later on why a PC is exactly that.

    That is what the person asking for a PC wants. Neither would he like personal opinions like "this is crap" or "it should be worth less" - those won't help him - nor does he ask for them.

    Of course there are items difficult to PC and items more easy to PC. Some core skin q9 15^50 item is on the easy side whilst a q10 dualreduction defender is on the difficult side. A nick item is on the easier side, a q7 fellblade in white is on the difficult side. Why is that so? There are plenty of q9 15^50 core skins around and they are regularly sold. Nick items as well are a rather regularly sold item even though it changes weekly. A q10 defender or a q7 white fellblade on the other hand are difficult since there's barely any of those around, not to say they are unique. There can't be a market value for those - there is no comparison. STILL there are collectors looking for either - some desperately - and those have prices in their mind, which they find appropriate, they might however pay more, since they really want it, which might express itself via a upper limit they set to themselves or their maximum is limited by their wealth. A PC now asks: what price do I get / have to pay for this item? This is where the trickey part begins...

    you could tell the amount that you find reasonable, the amount you'd pay for it - be it mental or wealthwise a limit (if higher than what you find reasonable) and both would kind of be valid as a PC on the first glance.

    BUT that is wrong. That is your personal opinion. The buyer wants to know how much he'll have to pay in order to win against rivals, the seller wants to know how much he can get out of the item from those interested in it. That is what is the value on the markeg in either case.

    Now to give the best possible guess on that you'd have to combine all the "how much would I pay for this item" of ALL the players around and see where that leads:

    1. If the item is offered for sale the one willing and able to pay the highest amount will get the item on an open market, if the seller thinks the offered amount to be "appropriate or higher". If not the item will not be sold until sellers opinion or interests limit (be it of mental or wallet nature) change. - That's what is commonly referred to as "put it for sale and see where it goes" - a legit option to determine a price and potentially the most honest and best guess YOU can give - still doesn't give a price check and thus is a little out of place - a general big reminder in the header of the PC section should inform, that without a PC by several people in similar price regions a sale via private pm is a little like lottery - could go very well or very bad. Later on that. But putting it for auction is an alternative to a PC - it is not a PC.

    2. If the person asking for a PC is interested in buying the item there may or may not be such item on the market. That is not the question asked by "give a PC" however. That problem is commonly referred to as "priceless" "there is no such thing" etc. Again that is rather a limited reply and won't actually answer the question asked. Either there is such thing for sale, in which case we go a similar direction as under point 1. or there isn't - in which case no trade occurs and no real value could be extracted from that info: one would have to suggest such an item hitting the market and mentally follow the steps mentioned (hint: "auction", "who'd pay most").

    So what would be the value of the item on the market now? Let's think of an open market, say an auction. How much would the item sell for? The person willing and able to pay the most could get it - as the only one amongst the buyers - but only if the seller is willing to sell at that price, which is his personal value of the item. The price that it would go for is slightly higher than the-higher-amount-of-what-second-highest-willing-to-pay-and-the-sellers-value-of-the-item is, if still lower than what the person willing and able to pay most would pay. If the sellers idea of the itemvalue is higher, the highest amount the item would be possibly be sold for on the market is still the amount, that the person willing and able to pay the most is willing and able to pay, which in that case is the value of the item on the market - neither the sellers idea of the value of the item, nor the other buyers' limits hit that criterium.

    In that case the amount the person willing to pay the most is willing to pay is the value of the item.

    Now if the item is sold the amount it is sold for still isn't the value of the item: if the sellers idea of the price was low he will have agreed to a price, that was lower than the person willing to pay the most would have paid. If a person is interested in buying an item he'll have to expect to have to pay (slightly more than) the amount the person willing to pay the most is willing to pay - and thus the amount adressed in his PC.

    So we can conclude: no matter what - the only proper amount that would be a PC is the amount the person willing to pay the most is willing to pay. The only problem is to know everyones opinions and find (amongst all those) the highest. - that means that any answers on discussive PC threads would have to promote higher values than previous replies - anything else would mean that either the person PCing first has already faultly given a guess without any proper knowledge or that the second person replying would not have got the idea of price check.

    So in the end two things to summarize:

    1. Post amounts you KNOW someone is willing to pay,

    2. only if that amount is higher than those mentioned in previous replies.

    Now few things to mention:

    A sale via pm might be of advantage or disadvantage for the seller and the buyer: the buyer offering an amount might personally think of the items value as too high and offer too much, whilst in an auction he'd realize his mistake and correct it - advantageous for seller, disadvantageous for buyer. Or the seller might think of the items value as too low and accept a too low offer - disadvantageous for seller, advantageous for buyer.

    Now what? A good trader knows his pricing and doesn't let trade partners know, thus he can on both options profit from the deals - commonly referred to as lowballing or scamming if done too extreme in ones personal value set.

    This is where the PC comes in: to educate buyers and sellers about the items' potential.

    In either case the specified applies:

    PC = asking value of item on market = amount the person willing to pay the most for it is willing to pay

    Which you choose is up to you - asking for PC or heading in on your own, trying to get a good deal.

    So far about PC.

    Of course people change, their wallet changes, their priorities change... even the supply changes and consequently the value of items changes.

    This is getting excessive...

    About the economy a few words:

    Most people that have started collections at some point and stuck to it want to improve them, make them more special. That leads to the rare items getting more and more wanted - or if too common - neglected. That leads to one conclusion: stuff that still drops gets only interesting on the very rare end - as we see with q8 insc stuff, esp swords and shields e.g.. The common q9 15^50 core skin serves for heros at best. The next fact is: wealth in guild wars is constantly increased by farming and sadly botting. That leads to constant inflation - with botting even more rapidly. Hacking incidents of inactive accounts bring even more ingame wealth to the playerbase further increasing their wealth. With increased wealth the personal limits change in the same direction: for your dream item you are willing to pay more and more - possibly ridiculous amounts - and with the wealth that is even in the achievable range. That leads to a price increase in all items. But what does the seller want with money? Up his collection - often. That means the request of rarer items densens up. Also the buyer of the item might reach for higher goals now that his previous has been reached. That leads to immense price gain of rare items compared to common items. Usability is rather on a second point: to impress you need something extremely rare, not necessarily something useful. Sure there are collectors who do not want to impress others - but at least themselves - people strive for the higher. Sure there are people who just buy or collect usable items, but there as well many strive for the rarer. But the terribly rare items compared to rare items get again more wanted and thus even more rapidly gain in value. That is how q7 clean white fellblade got valueable - as well as q10 dualred. Defender. Sure those prices are ridiculously high - at least ridiculous to those not interested in the items or frustrated by their rapid price increase.

    In the end if you afford a high value item it most likely increases overproportionally.

    What happens on a global scale: the rich get richer, if they invest in items, the poor stay poor in comparison even though everyone gains money - welcome to free market economy ;) in guild wars combined with high inflation lately due to said reasons.

    So yes it still doesn't matter for the items value how much you would pay - what matters is what someone else would pay - and you'll have to do the same or not get the item (or be a good trader or scammer - whatever you call it - the line is thin - and fetch it without anyone else noticing)

    So I'd conclude why the arguments in PC section: the amount someone on the market is willing to pay increases more rapidly than the respective personal value of some individuals - which leads to their contribution since they feel it's ridiculous and want to express that. - as long as someone is willing to pay more it doesn't matter what you think (and please - I am not adressing anyone in particular, just the reader - if you did read it this far :P) something that was garbage years ago today is the hot shit, since there is no supply of the nerfed stuff but an increasing playerbase seeking the uncommon - nerfed stuff comes to mind and woosh a purple staff that was merchfodder 10 years ago is worth thousands of ectos - an amount that was back when the staff was merchfodder would have made him the most wealthy player around. The actual problem was the nerf itself - creating such niche markets that could only densen up over years with no counterweight by new supply from farming...

    Feel free to discuss with arguments of solid base - I tried to outline and argue everything reasonably and conclude logically.

    Thanks for the attention - lets get the PC section a little calmer on the rare items.

    And without wanting to promote myself in any way I'd think such a clear philosophy would be appropriate in the PC section.

    I WTB all kinds of Tower Shields and Defenders. I do drop research - if you find anything remarkable or want to see the results - check the thread or send a pm!

    IGN1 Red Fireball Rusher

    IGN2 Silberner Magier

    Edited once, last by Red Fireball (September 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM).

    Red,

    I love you and have been involved in this economy for a very very long time...but I couldn't make it through this post in one sitting. I took a few bites and will have to come back for more later.

    Please understand that what I am about to write is based upon only a partial reading and my own involvent in the thread in question.

    To me, a PC should represent fair market value of an item. For an item to have a fair market value, an item must have an established market. When an item is only desired by a very small numbers of players and there is no real history of sales there is no established market and therefore no PC is possible. The item will be sold for whatever is agreed upon between buyer and seller. Provision of a "PC" in this situation is bullcrap and using that forum to attribute excessive value to an item you own is worse.

    For common items that are frequently traded, this information is reliable and useful. For other sorts of items, not so much.

    This is not to say that ideas about value of rare or rarely-wanted items cannot be exchanged. Know what it was sold for once upon a time? Say so. Know someone who might want it? Provide that information so a difficult to find item might find appreciative hands. Want to arbitrarily assign a value using logic that doesn't hold water and the power of reputation? Save it and stop making a troubled economy even moreso.

    Taken together, this is why I do not participate in the PC forum and uniformly refuse requests I get for such info. Most often PCs are just hot air.

    Sorry for length but I think it's still a little briefer than Red😉

    Have to agree with my brother on this one (both about what he said and about not making it through the first post...I'll work on that!).

    The PC forum has always been a cesspool of market manipulation (in whatever direction benefits the currently powerful "gurus") and has never born much resemblance to what is actually possible.

    I think that information about actual sales of similar items (price, when the sale was made) is useful, but only for loose reference. I suppose that information about non-sales of similar items (e.g., "One of those has been for sale on legacy for XXXe for the last 2 weeks and nobody's taken it.") is also useful.

    Unfortunately, what often happen on PC threads is that people don't talk in facts. They talk in terms of their own beliefs about what an item should be worth. That is most often pointless. And sometimes they go one step further and argue about whose version of "should" is right. That is useless. If we are going to say that there is a market for an item, then there very well may also be segments to that market -- some potential customers who are only willing to pay a certain amount and other potential customers that may be willing to pay much more. Even the most benevolent PCer may only be familiar with one or another segment of the market.

    That is why, IMO, the only useful info that can come from a PC thread is factual information about recent (non-)sales of similar items. But even that needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. That information is just as much about the seller's skill and determination as it is about the value of an item on the market.

    <3[PhD]<3

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    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat

    I Generally dont price check items that i havent either owned or own because only then i know exacly how much intrest ive received on market and seen the potential of items.

    Every Price check i made i make such as red says it should, Try find the highest value possible because thats the only way helpful for the seller/buyer.

    Ppl who been inactive, havent followed ingame trades and possibly only seen bids on this forum that wields only small % of trading in gw then place price checks based on that saying its the market.. well it isnt, If i know i got friend who collects someting quirky and rarely plays gw but when he comes on it can be sold for loads, then it is worth loads to me, cus thats the highest possible value the seller can get for it. period.

    Quote from Pleikki

    If i know i got friend who collects someting quirky and rarely plays gw but when he comes on it can be sold for loads, then it is worth loads to me, cus thats the highest possible value the seller can get for it. period.

    Tl;dr: your PC's don't represent fair market value because you base them on one-off imaginary sales dreamt up through connections not shared amongst the general get population.


    Thanks for making my point for me.


    Period.

    After waking up now and thinking more about the topic and what red said i realised someting.

    The biggest scam are the ppl not giving price checks. And why is that? because they are often the market, the people whod want to buy the items, ppl with knowledge on subject and possibly would want to make advatange on seller not knowing the potention by getting item for less then PCd for their own collectoin or for resale.


    Lets face it, almost everyone does it sometimes "i dont Pc this item cus i want to buy it" what that often means is: The buyer knows hed be willing pay more then actual market price or the price checks given, and doesnt want seller know it so he gets advantage. Therefor scamming and manipulating prices lower then they should.


    People should allways be given the highest possible value of the item. BY not giving that were part of market manipulating.

    Sorry for double post but another subject i want to add here.


    Price checking items u collect urself.

    When u collect someting, that means u dont sell the items u own, therefor u dont get advantage by giving high price checks on similar items, but its the opposite.

    Because when u collect someting, u want more of the same kind, if u give similar item u own high valuationg, means the next similar item also sells high or even higher, so ure shooting urself to foot, no profit is gain in any part of that cus u just end up paying alot more for next item for ur collection.


    Therefor, giving highest price check is allways the only fair decision, since with giving lower pc on subject, ud give urself way greater advantage by getting next item possibly cheaper.

    So as collector of odd items i should actually thank you, every who price check items low, cus thats how u give me advantage of getting item i want cheap, for less then id be willing to pay.

    Edited 3 times, last by Pleikki (September 24, 2018 at 7:20 AM).

    Price checking is a biased thing normally, the prices that i see that are given are normally what someone is willing to pay, if it seems absurd enough then the seller will of course dump it for that price and everyone else just assumes that is what the item is worth.

    No one can ever be right what an item will be worth, it has always been a mutual thing between the seller and the buyer, price checking is just there to determine if the item is worthless or not. Price checking isn't there to exactly price an item contrary to popular belief. It is why we ask for many opinions on pc threads to determine if the item is valuable or not.

    Just because an item sold for xxx amount doesn't mean all the other same items are worth xxx amount, because there maybe only that 1 niche collector that pays for certain items/trash.

    Quote from Pleikki

    Sorry for double post but another subject i want to add here.

    The lady doth protest too much...

    Posts get long around here, I'll just make a few quick points.

    Quote from Pleikki

    Because when u collect someting, u want more of the same kind, if u give similar item u own high valuationg, means the next similar item also sells high or even higher, so ure shooting urself to foot, no profit is gain in any part of that cus u just end up paying alot more for next item for ur collection.

    ----> Ass backwards, again. By PCing high you are 1) increasing the value of your own collection and 2) reducing competition for the current item by "pricing" it out-of-range for many other potential buyers thereby increasing your chances of obtaining the item.

    Currency naturally becomes more abundant and less valuable in the game over time, leading to inflation without your vigorous help. Please stop. Thx.

    So..

    A pre-nerf eternal Q8 - 2 hex is 5-25e..

    And a Q7 non inherent White Fellblade is 1500e how..?

    Point proven.

    Oh, Notority don't lecture me on pvp shields

    Every Q7/15 shield is what 20-40e and that sea purse skin is why 30000% the value over others?

    So please enlighten me why a common shield that STILL drops is worth two times the value of a pre-nerf Q8 perfect Crysta how..?

    Its Greed, not market value bye.

    If you'll be content with putting water with wine, the glass will always be half full.

    :) Thank you Zephyr

    " A sword wields no strength unless the hand that wields it has courage"
    <=======|==0

    Awesome I happy that many people commented to discuss the topic - I found some interesting aspects and had a few more thoughts on the topic.
    I´d like to start at the very beginning - I think I missed that point:
    What we´d need to determine is: Who asks for a PC? and What answer would satisfy him/her?
    I think there is several groups (feel free to add any I might have forgotten):
    for briefer reading I just write "a price" for the longerish "the price that can be fetched on the current market" which I lengthily discussed in the original post to be "the amount the person willing to pay the most is willing to pay".
    1) Someone who has the item, doesn´t want it himself, but is clueless, what (if at all) it is worth.
    He´d be satisfied by the price or by a reply like - don´t merch, put it for auction. Directly putting it for auction should be applyable as well - if no one offers the thing is most likely worthless.
    2) Someone who has the item, has a personal value to it and wants to see, if he´ll sell it.
    He´d be satisfied only by a price, thus he can determine, wheather or not it meets his expectations - an auction might be more reasonable option for him with the r/b being his personal value to the thing.
    3) Someone who has an item, did not intend to sell it, but got an offer that got him thinking.
    He´d be satisfied by a price, to determine weather the offer is really actually good or he just undervalued his item and should rather put it for auction - here as well putting it straight up for auction might be the more appropriate option.
    4) Someone who would like to buy the item, has seen it on the market and wants to know, weather or not the asked price is appropriate.
    He´d be satisfied by a price.
    5) Someone who likes a certain item, but is clueless weather or not he can afford it - or how much he´d have to expect to save up.
    He´d be satisfied by a price.
    6) Someone who wants to farm for something and dreams up the best possible drops in certain places, wants to value them and farm on the spot he´d find most profitable.
    He´d be satisfied by a price.
    7) Someone who is just curious.
    He´d be satisfied by a price usually (depends on his curiosity).

    Groups 1-3 are very important, would all only really determine the price of the item if putting it for auction.
    Or as Kabong properly expressed it:

    Quote from Kabong

    Most often PCs are just hot air.

    especially in situations of those items, that do not have proper comparison. The problem is the following: If putting it for auction you can only determine how much the second highest offering person would pay - since the one still in the race after that will just pay little more than that. What the Seller wants by asking for PC is to find out the limits of that one person though - to maximize profit, to set the r/b as high as possible for it to still be taken and THAT is the problem. Not the PC honestly telling about that. But that´s what trading is: You want to profit - as good as possible - at least as a trader.
    With this in mind we can again look at the 7 groups I listed: either you have profit in mind, in which case you are interested in the highest price you can fetch on the market, or you just want to determine a fair price to let go of the item in good conscience. I think here comes the disambiguation. Still what a fair price is somewhat vague here and I do not really have any idea where to start in order to define that. Something that represents the items mean value to players around?

    Conclusion:
    I´d say on common items the comparison is given, the mean value is known, you won´t get much more for the item, since there is enough supply and you won´t get much less, since there is request.
    On rare items the gap opens up between the mean value to players and the maximum you can fetch, which heats the discussions - One has the profit in mind and would regard a PC giving the average value to players as inappropriate, the other has the average in mind and regards a PC giving the highest fetchable price as inappropriate.
    Maybe with this in mind we could unheaten those debates by trying to understand what the other one implies and making clear what youself mean.
    Replies like "Anything above 500e for the q7 Fellblade should be fair but it could fetch upto 1750e." would be really helpful in the case - I mean both sides have their reasons to give the amount they write.

    Now I like to summarize some of the arguments given and try to put them into context:

    Quote from Kabong

    To me, a PC should represent fair market value of an item. For an item to have a fair market value, an item must have an established market. When an item is only desired by a very small numbers of players and there is no real history of sales there is no established market and therefore no PC is possible. The item will be sold for whatever is agreed upon between buyer and seller. Provision of a "PC" in this situation is bullcrap and using that forum to attribute excessive value to an item you own is worse.

    I got that ("fair market value"), I only went the direction someone who´d want to maximize profit would see the PC in my original post. However the price the item will be sold for in an auction goes in that direction rather than the fair price. Be it for potential buyer - he´d have to outbid the other buyers and thus expect to reach that amount - or be it for the seller - he´d get as much as is offered at maximum. So this to me seems to be the more relevant info for those. If you have a friend, trade items with him and just want both not to feel ripped off in the end - the fair price might be more interesting.

    Quote from Kabong

    This is not to say that ideas about value of rare or rarely-wanted items cannot be exchanged. Know what it was sold for once upon a time? Say so. Know someone who might want it? Provide that information so a difficult to find item might find appreciative hands. Want to arbitrarily assign a value using logic that doesn't hold water and the power of reputation? Save it and stop making a troubled economy even moreso.

    Very clearly said - I can totally agree in all points! Actual facts instead of loose numbers Would make the discussion less potent to be overly heated.

    Quote from Kabong

    For common items that are frequently traded, this information is reliable and useful. For other sorts of items, not so much.

    Definitely yes - that is why tempers arise I guess ;)

    Quote from Captain Krompdown

    The PC forum has always been a cesspool of market manipulation (in whatever direction benefits the currently powerful "gurus") and has never born much resemblance to what is actually possible.

    I think that information about actual sales of similar items (price, when the sale was made) is useful, but only for loose reference. I suppose that information about non-sales of similar items (e.g., "One of those has been for sale on legacy for XXXe for the last 2 weeks and nobody's taken it.") is also useful.

    As any system the Forums can be abused for manipulation - I see that, but think the moderators do a great job trying to limit such abuse. And on the very rare items absolutely the said applies: "Only auction will tell what it goes for" - the PCs try to guess it but it´s unforseeable in many points. Actual facts of similar sales are best, but if not available not applyable.

    Quote from Captain Krompdown

    Unfortunately, what often happen on PC threads is that people don't talk in facts. They talk in terms of their own beliefs about what an item should be worth. That is most often pointless. And sometimes they go one step further and argue about whose version of "should" is right. That is useless. If we are going to say that there is a market for an item, then there very well may also be segments to that market -- some potential customers who are only willing to pay a certain amount and other potential customers that may be willing to pay much more. Even the most benevolent PCer may only be familiar with one or another segment of the market.

    I couldn´t have said it better or clearer.

    Quote from Captain Krompdown

    That is why, IMO, the only useful info that can come from a PC thread is factual information about recent (non-)sales of similar items. But even that needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. That information is just as much about the seller's skill and determination as it is about the value of an item on the market.

    Also information about people interested in the items and their value to the things is/would be very useful in a PC thread as I pointed out I think, but else I totally agree.

    Quote from Pleikki

    The biggest scam are the ppl not giving price checks. And why is that? because they are often the market, the people whod want to buy the items, ppl with knowledge on subject and possibly would want to make advatange on seller not knowing the potention by getting item for less then PCd for their own collectoin or for resale.

    I do agree on the problem - however I´d not say it´s the people not giving price checks, but only those that do that to cover their own interest and take advantage of the lower resulting selling price. That is again someone taking advantage from a system - and this one is very difficult to prevent - only participation in the PC section could tackle this problem I guess. - By others telling the seller, what his item is actually worth.

    Quote from Pleikki


    Lets face it, almost everyone does it sometimes "i dont Pc this item cus i want to buy it" what that often means is: The buyer knows hed be willing pay more then actual market price or the price checks given, and doesnt want seller know it so he gets advantage. Therefor scamming and manipulating prices lower then they should.

    This directly points out the thin line between being a successful (I avoided saying "good" here for clarification) and a scammer - in the end it is only a matter of perspective - both want to get good deals and therefore take advantage of whatever they find. (One of the reasons why I´m a terrible trader...)

    Quote from zxc

    Price checking is a biased thing normally, the prices that i see that are given are normally what someone is willing to pay, if it seems absurd enough then the seller will of course dump it for that price and everyone else just assumes that is what the item is worth.

    Just because an item sold for xxx amount doesn't mean all the other same items are worth xxx amount, because there maybe only that 1 niche collector that pays for certain items/trash.

    Very beautifully said! On the last point I´d mention however: Once it´d be clear what a proper PC is everyone could work with that. - be it the highest possible market price you´d know that the next item like the one previously sold will most likely be worth less in a niche market. - or be it a "average value" everyone could understand that you most likely can get more, if you know whom to ask.

    Quote from zxc

    No one can ever be right what an item will be worth, it has always been a mutual thing between the seller and the buyer, price checking is just there to determine if the item is worthless or not. Price checking isn't there to exactly price an item contrary to popular belief. It is why we ask for many opinions on pc threads to determine if the item is valuable or not.

    I tried to lay out that actually in most cases a price is of interest - and there is no such thing as a definition for price check, which is why exactly the popular belief is what a PC is. I try to find out what that is.

    Quote from Kabong
    I couldn't make it through this post in one sitting.

    Sorry for length but I think it's still a little briefer than Red😉

    hehe ;) yes a logic discourse on a topic as complex and heated as this necessitates long texts - that´s what we are in the discussion section for :) I´m glad for everyone who takes the time to read and write! and I´m sorry this one probably got even longer :O

    For everyone - I´d like to rather lead a reasonable debate rather than throwing words at oneanother. I realize there is a certain grudge between several people that has built up and discharges now. I´d like you to stay neutral rather than get emotional - please!

    I WTB all kinds of Tower Shields and Defenders. I do drop research - if you find anything remarkable or want to see the results - check the thread or send a pm!

    IGN1 Red Fireball Rusher

    IGN2 Silberner Magier

    I want to Ask one thing. How much does customized items value rise with Time and market? And competition doesnt really change with items on The normal 1-100a range most items are. Just gets More crowded with ppl making money out of nowhere thesedays. Theres allways More ppl buying and less selling even on high numbers when it comes to rare items.

    Second. Of course The high pc dont work For items that are common and keep getting farmed everyday and have fix market. Its about rarer items that possibly only sell once a year or less. Its stupid compare swamp club to green endgame hammer cus they definetly on whole different scale of market.

    3rd. High pricing leaves no room For profit. If u value item cheap that anyone can buy without reason it leaves room to resell and just Make profit on original seller who shouldve deserved make the money himself. Is it better that reseller, 3rd hand gets the profit in middle due low Price checks given. Than probably some old returning player who really could use the money from items he sells.

    4th. I stick to My point. I know honorable persons neither give prices hoping advatange cus thats what everyone does..

    And last yes there arent reliable pcs, but giving unreliable pc that might Be closer to actual Sale Price then unreliable pc that has nothing to do with Price checks is way More helpful For seller or buyer to know what he can expect.

    Why do you think Price checks should be given? Cus to me it seems you dont want to help ppl asking at all.


    Quote

    So..

    A pre-nerf eternal Q8 - 2 hex is 5-25e..

    And a Q7 non inherent White Fellblade is 1500e how..?

    Point proven.


    Well its again comparing apples with oranges. Why is q8 dwarven hammer with mod like 20while hex worth more then q8 tall shield that actually can be used? you cant compare apples with oranges

    Edited 3 times, last by Pleikki (September 24, 2018 at 4:07 PM).

    Now that my head has stop spinning and I read about 75% of what is here, there are many great points, the interesting part is that sometimes someone's explanation or point of view can change your mind so I won't dwell on all of these differences.

    However, I will point out one reference that I would disagree with due to experience, and that is that "when people don't pc cause they are interested in the item, this is a scam". Granted there may be some players with different intends, but I am one of those people that won't pc when interested because of personal experience. I stopped PCing items that I am interested in because of a situation I had on Guru where I was personally attacked by a seller cause I pc'd an item based on what I knew the item was worth based on other competitive sales, then I bid on it and someone else bid more, natural situation in any auction, that's how auctions work. Was I in the wrong, no, not in my eyes, I was not doing anything shady, but the perception by the seller was that I pc'd an item purposely low to try to get it for that price when others were going to bid more. Did I know others were going to bid more, no, who would know?

    I would love to tell someone that I would be willing to pay xx for an item on a pc based on comparison of other sales and have them actually price the item around that, but that will never happen.

    My Legacy Trade Posts: WTSell | WTBuy

    My Collections (Working Progress): Chevy's Shiny Relics

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    Definition of "Collection": An Accumulation of objects gathered for study, comparison, or exhibition or as a hobby.

    Note: Definition does not specify rarity or value, although it could be a choice, it's not a requirement.

    Because they are both as useless as can be and thus qualifiy for being in the ''garbage novelty'' section which is always a low range PC.

    There is no way that between those two items can exist such substantial diffrences.

    If you'll be content with putting water with wine, the glass will always be half full.

    Quote from Zephyr

    Because they are both as useless as can be and thus qualifiy for being in the ''garbage novelty'' section which is always a low range PC.

    There is no way that between those two items can exist such substantial diffrences.

    And what determines whats "Garbage novelty" and what not? Someone could say all 12-13% weapons mods like q8 12% Tyrian serpent or crysta are "garbage novelty" while other thinks all prenerf staffs are "Garbage novelty" since neither of above rly have no use.

    And lets face it. most collectors never use half their items so someting being useless doesnt rly prove anything. While someting like max dmg weapon (such as q7 ) actually can be used, the missing damage mod is rly small difference in use compared such things as shields with modifiers 3/10% that many value so greatly.

    Quote from Zephyr

    Oh, Notority don't lecture me on pvp shields

    Every Q7/15 shield is what 20-40e and that sea purse skin is why 30000% the value over others?

    So please enlighten me why a common shield that STILL drops is worth two times the value of a pre-nerf Q8 perfect Crysta how..?

    Its Greed, not market value bye.


    I lecture you cause you don't know your arse from the ground about the q7 tac shield market. Try looking for another sea purse with those stats and see how quickly you find one. Hrwakka's got a q7 tac SotW going for 130e atm, and SotW is one of the most common skins.


    I'll just leave this here..

    Low Level Shields and their use?

    Simply supply and demand.

    BYE.

    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat

    Edited 2 times, last by Ingame Notoriety (October 4, 2018 at 11:06 AM).

    1st. The value of customized items that has value/re selleable value is just insane, either pets or weapons. there shouldnt be a market for that,its unusable when it comes to weapons, its just a shiny turd from someone else

    3rd. The fact that you even mention this shows how cancerous powertraders are in gw. All you guys think about is making profit and resell. Then the next buyer thinks the same thing and the prices goes up...AGAIN...

    Pc should be fair to both sides,look at EK's q8 15^50 katana,it has 115a offer atm and EK is too greedy, he wants more. he probably wants 250a for it knowing how greedy people are in this game. No wonder the economy is screwed when there is people like that reselling everything. I bought my q8 15^50 katana in 2016 for 1200e I belive,and not more than 2years later people want 100-200a for a q8 weap that was pc'd for 200-500e in 2015/2016.

    I'm almost at the brink of giving up collecting just because how insane people pc everything,ppl even think that a grape obby staff is like xx(x) arms in value.

    Quote from OS T

    Pc should be fair to both sides,look at EK's q8 15^50 katana,it has 115a offer atm and EK is too greedy, he wants more. he probably wants 250a for it knowing how greedy people are in this game. No wonder the economy is screwed when there is people like that reselling everything. I bought my q8 15^50 katana in 2016 for 1200e I belive,and not more than 2years later people want 100-200a for a q8 weap that was pc'd for 200-500e in 2015/2016.

    It is stupid to talk about greed when everyone including you do that, youve got offers on ur gloom shield example multiple times higher then what u paid and u wont sell it for any less then price u expect because of greed, even if the current price many could call high, same happened before when you asked for year multiple times more then other ppl for that q9 20/20 Illu Twinserpent and q10 20/20 Heal plat staff just because of greed, u couldve sold them for fair price multiple times...


    Act urself 1st before ask others do someting.. This applies to everyone i dont see any collector sell their q8 items "for fair price" but everyone asking even higher then price checks given..


    If Ppl would start selling items straight with some "Fair B/o" maybe price checks would move to that direction too, but everyone only selling auctions waiting for high prices and even after high C/os ppl put even higher r/bs and B/os thats what drives those prices up..

    Edited once, last by Pleikki (October 4, 2018 at 12:33 PM).

    • Official Post

    It’s worth adding here that these ridiculous (“greedy”) prices are facilitated by the cheaty bots which have flooded our economy with currency and caused this hyper-inflation in the first place. Greed can only be fed if the currency is there to fulfil it. Without bazillions of botted and purchased armbraces in circulation, the greedy prices cannot be met, and the greed would be kept in check, and prices would be more realistic.

    These artificially or “greedy” prices are a symptom of a much larger problem. And it’s the same problem that makes price checking such a thorny subject in GW2k18. And it’s why I retired. I predicted this in about 2013-4 ish.

    "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars" - Oscar Wilde

    Yeah exacly, being greedy is only way to survive in the current market without cheats, it might drive prices up but its not the start of the problem.

    I wanna go back to earlier subject about whats bad and what not and say one point that ive realised.

    Scale of prices staid same even after all these years.

    Lets compare that white q7 and random q8 15^50 weapon


    2006-2007, white was 100k, q8 15^50 was 30-50e,

    2013-2014, white was 100-200e, q8 15^50 500-600e

    2017-2018 white weapon is 20a, q8 15^50 100a.


    everything goes up equally much over the years.. maybe ppl didnt notice the "bad" items before when their prices didnt seem marginally high, but truthfully in scale to other items they allways been "as much"

    -Pleikki

    No one collected whites in 2006 - 2007. I was playing at that time and I cant remember seeing whites for sale or on collector thread on guru. Which just makes belive you are making this up to justfiy the prices.

    So if the q8 15^50 weaps were priced 500-600e in 2013 -2014 why is is that the prices were 200-300e in 2015 - 2016 ???

    Quote from OS T

    No one collected whites in 2006 - 2007. I was playing at that time and I cant remember seeing whites for sale or on collector thread on guru. Which just makes belive you are making this up to justfiy the prices.

    So if the q8 15^50 weaps were priced 500-600e in 2013 -2014 why is is that the prices were 200-300e in 2015 - 2016 ???

    Its simply cus you didnt pay attension to items like that, ive allways seen market for them and ppl collecting cus ive paid attension to items like that, simple as that lol, There were some collectors with alot clean q7s and whites on collectors thread too such as "Dimmuborgir satan" back in day.. but its understandable ppl dont pay attension to items like that.. or even Zephyr in later years of guru


    well ye maybe the year on that middle should be 2014-2016 rather then 2013-2014, years go by so quickly, but in 2015 q7 whites sold for 250e per i do remmeber that rather easy^^

    Quote from Pleikki

    It is stupid to talk about greed when everyone including you do that, youve got offers on ur gloom shield example multiple times higher then what u paid and u wont sell it for any less then price u expect because of greed, even if the current price many could call high, same happened before when you asked for year multiple times more then other ppl for that q9 20/20 Illu Twinserpent and q10 20/20 Heal plat staff just because of greed, u couldve sold them for fair price multiple times...


    Act urself 1st before ask others do someting.. This applies to everyone i dont see any collector sell their q8 items "for fair price" but everyone asking even higher then price checks given..


    If Ppl would start selling items straight with some "Fair B/o" maybe price checks would move to that direction too, but everyone only selling auctions waiting for high prices and even after high C/os ppl put even higher r/bs and B/os thats what drives those prices up..

    I know,I'm greedy in that regard when it comes to that 1 item I had for sale,but I dont do that with every item I have sold and I dont sell to resell like many are doing. in case you forgot it was you who pc'd the gloom shield for me. I never intentionally bought the gloom shield for selling it later.

    The twin serpent staffs I bought for too much of 500e at that time,I ended up using it,but later found some better skinned staffs so I sold for less than I spent for it. Both staffs at 500e each was a impulse buy because of that 1 guy,and that was not of greedy.The heal q10 plat staff was for me for my collection and when I found the better version I sold the q10. And at that time people werent heavily botted plat staffs.

    And I actually did sell the twin serpent and plat heal q10 fair priced.

    q8 gold items with good mods is not the same thing as blue fellblades or white fellblades.

    Quote from Pleikki

    Its simply cus you didnt pay attension to items like that, ive allways seen market for them and ppl collecting cus ive paid attension to items like that, simple as that lol, There were some collectors with alot clean q7s and whites on collectors thread too such as "Dimmuborgir satan" back in day.. but its understandable ppl dont pay attension to items like that.. or even Zephyr in later years of guru


    well ye maybe the year on that middle should be 2014-2016 rather then 2013-2014, years go by so quickly, but in 2015 q7 whites sold for 250e per i do remmeber that rather easy^^

    But who seriously did pay attention do that in 05 and 06???

    Just because you remember 1 guy who randomly collects whites doesnt mean its a market for it.

    I cant see I saw anyone selling in 2015 for q7 whites in kamadan, and I was there nonstop for a long long time every day,but that was from the summer so I cant speak of the first half of 2015. Beside, prices for whites today is just stupid.Ive seen you pc q8 unperf gold items less than a white fellblade is worth. That doesnt make sense.

    Quote from OS T

    But who seriously did pay attention do that in 05 and 06???

    Just because you remember 1 guy who randomly collects whites doesnt mean its a market for it.

    I cant see I saw anyone selling in 2015 for q7 whites in kamadan, and I was there nonstop for a long long time every day,but that was from the summer so I cant speak of the first half of 2015. Beside, prices for whites today is just stupid.Ive seen you pc q8 unperf gold items less than a white fellblade is worth. That doesnt make sense.

    Its because u dont understand the market of prenerfs, especially q7 items.

    I do remember white q7s in kama, Many oniblades and gothic swords and weapons i wanted to buy, offered hundreds ectos for many years ago but their owners were too keen to sell them, yet they casually spammed them in kamadan, there have been many in guru too. white q7 Gothic defenders sold for hundreds ectos years ago and so on...

    Ppl who collected q7 items paid attension, many skins like the fellblade dont excist purple or gold(in q7), so only possibility is white/blue making blue q7 fellblade best of its kind, thats reason some shield thats worst of its kind aint worth same as someting thats best of its kind.

    Quote from Pleikki

    Its because u dont understand the market of prenerfs, especially q7 items.

    I do remember white q7s in kama, Many oniblades and gothic swords and weapons i wanted to buy, offered hundreds ectos for many years ago but their owners were too keen to sell them, yet they casually spammed them in kamadan, there have been many in guru too. white q7 Gothic defenders sold for hundreds ectos years ago and so on...

    Ppl who collected q7 items paid attension, many skins like the fellblade dont excist purple or gold, so only possibility is white/blue making blue q7 fellblade best of its kind, thats reason some shield thats worst of its kind aint worth same as someting thats best of its kind.

    You are right,I dont understand the market for white or blue,grape pre nerfs. But gold I understand. Yet I dont collect unperf gold pre nerf weapons.

    When it comes to whites I will always see them as the worst of its kind because to me whites are merch no matter the q.

    it's like this everywhere, people with collector items or items in general want to flip the market to make profit (it's the idea of trading)

    But acting as a fatalist and being like everything got inflated because bots are everywhere.

    If bots were that obnixious armbrace price would drop rather than go up and down every week.

    It's simply supply and demand.

    For instance, I don't mind paying 60-70a for a gold os crysta even tho those got sold last year for like half the price, that's because I like them and I want them.

    Prices are actually inflated because of bots, a stack of armbraces would make u 1 of the richest persons 8+ years ago, a stack of armbraces = chump change in this day and age.

    I use to buy req8 15^50s for 10-20e only 6-8 years ago, now look at the prices you see on Sell.

    Inflation and botting do affect the prices of most OS collector items but certainly not most of the obscure categories like blues or whites unless its an extremely rare special case.