Sale of botted items on Legacy

  • Additionally, I think that a botting service should be allowed to be offered on the site. Pay x amount of arms for a specific item that needs to be farmed. This would allow the botters to make more money with the aforementioned restriction in place, while still allowing them to sell whatever else they get within the weekly restriction.

    added to my Screenshots Vault.
    a future legendary post u made here.

  • I've cleaned it up a bit here, keep it a bit on topic guys :)


    As we say in Dutch, speel op de bal, niet de man.
    Attack the words, not the person who said them.

    Hi there! I'm the Guild Wars Legacy admin, feel free to contact me if you've got issues.

    :ass: Inquisitor Karinda :der: Sunspear Elke :mes:Librarian Amber

  • Since I was tagged here, let me just say that I cannot know if an item I bought has been botted, stolen, or cheated. There's no way for me to find out so I don't bother myself with those sorts of questions. Everything I do, including trading, is done in good faith, and I assume the other party is approaching me in good faith as well. That's all what any of us can do, really.

  • i think its still funny that people still give a fuck in general.

    game is old, just a "handful" peeps still play it.

    way too many peeps have way too much money.

    many have used bots to achieve personal goals or just to get rich.

    toolbox (even tho i dont use it) helped mayn peeps do awesome speedruns and give the game some fun back.


    all these personal accusations and sometimes even worse... why?

    many of you act like little annoying kids ffs.


    i get that, some bots annoy(kama spam bots), some bring life back into shit (pvp would be empty i assume without em), some bring money (farming/chesting)


    i dont wanna attack anyone here, but my god, dont you have better things to do than to hate each other and bitch around?

  • These kind of things can be incredibly difficult to prove and while I realise some threads/items are likely a lot more obvious than others it is simpler for moderators and posters to follow existing rules.

    you cant really tell what is botted or not.

    I cannot know if an item I bought has been botted, stolen, or cheated. There's no way for me to find out

    The only way to be unsure about whether the items sold by Purely/Autism Awareness Is Back/Ether were botted is by burying your head in the sand (which is what I did in nov/dec). That's what the legacy team chooses to do by requiring evidence but not having the means to gather or assess it. Which is what I would do, too, if I were a moderator; things get messy and it will be too much work to sort them out. This has advantages as well, such as giving users more freedom to determine the forum's contents.


    Regarding forum contents, it seems to me that this place is now just for trading with loose morals. At the same time, recently there is no longer any interest in threads/discussions about actual gameplay. There's very little that interests me, and very little that I contribute that interests anyone. This thread was helpful for me to determine whether there was a chance of things changing in the future, so thanks to Dadan for starting it.

  • Exactly this Praise. Most of us dont care that bots are in game, we all are aware of that . We do care that They shamelessly can auction hundreds of items Here, ruining values of most items that regular players get.

    Edit. We became fine with data collecting by bots instead of doing research Like it used to be in threads made for example by Red Fireball. This forum changes in the way That Dadan mentioned and Thats issue for some of us.

  • The only way to be unsure about whether the items sold by Purely/Autism Awareness Is Back/Ether were botted is by burying your head in the sand

    You assume I know, and concern myself with, Purely/Autism Awareness Is Back/Ether or any other player/trader here.


    I most certainly do not.



    All I care about is if someone has an item I'd like to buy, and if they're willing to sell it to me at a price both of us are happy with. That's it.

  • First things first, I took most of the names from Ether posts (could be his chest-running data post or his WTS). As for the others, that was a bit random. Nevertheless, you do not have to participate, and I apologise for those who didn’t want to be mentioned. That was overall to get as many opinions as possible.


    Back to the topic, thanks for the constructive answers received.

    Sales of 500+ items are ridicilous. It will soon make any chest running or farming obsolete and that's a fact.

    By putting them for sale on GuildWars’ biggest community website, botters are making it worst. Spamming, showing and selling 500+ items in Kamadan would surely take some time, thus reducing their impact on the market. I don’t think they would do it anyway.


    Accessing the Legacy market and saving that time by only putting an extracted table (from their bots) is a gold mine for them.


    I my opinion, I would simply suggest what other people already suggested:

    Ban the obvious ones and let the benefit of the doubt for the others.


    To the moderators:

    Now you know people's mind, the time has come to take a decision and to stand for one side or the other.


    I thank you in advance not to answer “No Legacy rules are broken so no action necessary.”.

    That would mean either some rules need to be changed or you do not want to do anything.

    To let it go is standing on the botters’ side.

    IGN : Dadan Le Romanichel


    WTB OS max modded purple shields -2/39(40), -3/54(55), -5(18)/26, 26/-2/-3/+9 creatures :mouse:


    Data collection - 1e reward to see a +40/+55 on a OS purple shield (even single mod)

  • Dadan question. If I was to sell my 212 os goths would that thread get banned under looking like a bot? There is a lot of people that could make 500+ item threads so interested how your going to determine who’s a botter and not.


    Edit. For the record I don’t support bots however they do provide their own slice of the game no one with a life can replicate so buying goods from them I don’t see a issue as such. Also on that note you will find ethers thread had little to no items sell with so many bids due to them wanting way too much. So good luck to them and the storage accounts full of perfect q9s.

    WTB Spiked Clubs/Guardian of the hunts 😎

    Edited 2 times, last by ObsidiaN ().

  • i think its still funny that people still give a fuck in general.


    ...dont you have better things to do...?

    Aren't these the things we should be saying to the people cheating (and the ones consistently, knowingly benefiting from the cheating), not the ones objecting to it?


    All most normal people want is a fair chance to enjoy the game they've chosen to play. Stop defending people who take that away from others.


    Back on topic: What can Legacy do about it? Nothing. Are you hoping that they'll establish the provenance of every item before allowing it to be posted here? This issue is impossible to police just based on how a thread looks (e.g., lots of items) or who posted the thread.


    Pointless thread, imo, which is why I've been avoiding it, despite being tagged. That was kind of obnoxious. I hope that doesn't become a thing. It's like being invited to help clean out a septic tank.

  • Pointless thread, imo, which is why I've been avoiding it, despite being tagged. That was kind of obnoxious. I hope that doesn't become a thing. It's like being invited to help clean out a septic tank.

    Why should we say things to cheaters? they will cheat anyway, they shit on the rules, as they would bother when somebody says something about it.


    you even said it yourself, pointless thread and all the discussion is pointless. cheaters will cheat, haters will hate and f*ckers will f*ck

  • Dadan question. If I was to sell my 212 os goths would that thread get banned under looking like a bot? There is a lot of people that could make 500+ item threads so interested how your going to determine who’s a botter and not.


    Edit. For the record I don’t support bots however they do provide their own slice of the game no one with a life can replicate so buying goods from them I don’t see a issue as such. Also on that note you will find ethers thread had little to no items sell with so many bids due to them wanting way too much. So good luck to them and the storage accounts full of perfect q9s.

    ObsidiaN it all makes sense but the same person selling hundred of items is releasing bot data and was involved in giveaway drama. This case is way too obvious to say we cant know etc.

  • The only way to be unsure about whether the items sold by Purely/Autism Awareness Is Back/Ether were botted is by burying your head in the sand (which is what I did in nov/dec). That's what the legacy team chooses to do by requiring evidence but not having the means to gather or assess it. Which is what I would do, too, if I were a moderator; things get messy and it will be too much work to sort them out. This has advantages as well, such as giving users more freedom to determine the forum's contents.


    Regarding forum contents, it seems to me that this place is now just for trading with loose morals. At the same time, recently there is no longer any interest in threads/discussions about actual gameplay. There's very little that interests me, and very little that I contribute that interests anyone. This thread was helpful for me to determine whether there was a chance of things changing in the future, so thanks to Dadan for starting it.


    Exactly this Praise. Most of us dont care that bots are in game, we all are aware of that . We do care that They shamelessly can auction hundreds of items Here, ruining values of most items that regular players get.

    Edit. We became fine with data collecting by bots instead of doing research Like it used to be in threads made for example by Red Fireball. This forum changes in the way That Dadan mentioned and Thats issue for some of us.


    I'll turn the question around: what do you want us to do? It's a slippery slope and it is extremely hard for us to prove something - do I personally think people should be allowed to bot and sell their items here? No, I absolutely do not think they should be.

    In fact, people who bot should be banned in the game and in that way we are in quite a unique position - Guild Wars is still popular and active, nowhere near what it used to be, but it is still online. But banning has always been slow in Guild Wars and it feels like it has crawled to a stop nowadays.

    Usually, these issues should be handled by the one running the game, not a fan run forum. We lack tools to police things and while we can take action on Legacy, we can't stop things from happening - if we block something, it might just turn up again with a different name/seller.


    So what can we do with this, of for this? To be honest, that has been a question that I have been wondering myself for many weeks. We are discussing this internally, we have been following this thread quite well, but most people by now know that I usually keep away from moderation. In my opinion, it is more healthy for a platform when the owner of the platform isn't involved with moderation itself (so that you can remain fully neutral should you need to intervene).

    For the moment, our stance has been that we aren't the police of Guild Wars. That role should be filled by ArenaNet - but it is clear that they haven't been fullfilling this role as it should be. So perhaps that policy needs tweaking, but I don't know how far we need to go (and can go) with this.


    Do we put a notice on things that we received messages that the user is suspected to be botting? Do we block the account from posting in certain area's on Legacy? Because that will probably lead to them just going for a new account to get around that.

    If we ban those users, they will certainly just create a new one so that is not a solution on its own. It won't solve anything, except raise the Legacy user count further.


    So this is more complicated than I would prefer it to be. We're talking internally and that it the most I can currently say about it. What I can say is that a rule rework is in progress (has been for a while), but that seems to be progressing nicely now.


    So, my question for you guys is: how would you handle this were you in our place? Knowing that bans aren't as effective as you would wish them to be, having to at least have some proof from botting and in what way we could limit/display that.

    It's a though nut to crack.


    - Kev

    Hi there! I'm the Guild Wars Legacy admin, feel free to contact me if you've got issues.

    :ass: Inquisitor Karinda :der: Sunspear Elke :mes:Librarian Amber

  • Ravaidan Jalir Please don't twist my words. The thread is pointless because Legacy can't do anything to police the sale of botted items, not because cheaters gonna cheat. We're having this conversation because the question was raised about whether Legacy could police this specific community. The answer is no. But we can police ourselves and we do that by letting each other know what we think is ok and not ok.


    For example, are shitty, manipulative, predatory price checks ok? Nope. But there's nothing Legacy can do about that (other than getting rid of PCs). But people have changed at least some of that behavior thanks to us policing ourselves.


    This is just one example and it's the only one I'll give because I'm typing on my phone. The point is that policing ourselves can work. But it requires people to invest some energy into maintaining the integrity of the game they love and the community within which they play it. Your complaints about the community policing itself only serve to defend people who cheat and who consistently, knowingly benefit from cheating. Some of those people share a cape with you. Funny, that.


    ardunain That's exactly the kind of thing that people will just stop posting if they know it will mark them as a botter and keep them from selling items. The sales won't disappear but the "research" posts will. Or items will be put up for sale on an alt account or using a middleman. Or something else. It's impossible to police from Legacy's end.

    <3[PhD]<3

  • Hello, I didn't read all the reactions because of my English. Kevin's last intervention and the quotes mentioned were quite interesting.


    I answer him concerning the question: what would you do in our place?


    It is impossible to regulate or control sales of this kind, regarding the problem of bots. The only viable and realistic solution is to remove the sales section from the site. With all that this implies, negative as well as positive.


    Beyond that, it's an incomprehensible grey line.

  • Captain Krompdown even if they wouldnt dissapear imo there are ways of making some kind of limitation as I said there have been examples that are way too obvious to not know they re botted threads and the acceptance of bot data by our members is just sad. Also I Know that PhD is against buying currency for Dollars, can you explain me why you guys are fine with getting more items into collection from botters? Whats fun and nostalgic about that?

    There re forums for botters and legacy wasnt one of them till now. We could aswell just allow posting bot files here if you and moderators Iaerah dont see a way of doing something about that.

    What I would do is just simply take notes, you delete post when see flaming and you could delete threads that are known to be botted. I mean what else you need to know if same account posts bot data and then same items that drop from current chestrun are later on auction?

  • Captain Krompdown even if they wouldnt dissapear imo there are ways of making some kind of limitation as I said there have been examples that are way too obvious to not know they re botted threads and the acceptance of bot data by our members is just sad. Also I Know that PhD is against buying currency for Dollars, can you explain me why you guys are fine with getting more items into collection from botters? Whats fun and nostalgic about that?

    There re forums for botters and legacy wasnt one of them till now. We could aswell just allow posting bot files here if you and moderators Iaerah dont see a way of doing something about that.

    What I would do is just simply take notes, you delete post when see flaming and you could delete threads that are known to be botted. I mean what else you need to know if same account posts bot data and then same items that drop from current chestrun are later on auction?

    The problem is the known part. Unless they verbatim say here are my botted items for sale we can't definitively know they are botted.


    It is also a situation of false positives and framing people. Then the amount of moderation work is another problem.


    Hypothetical Example: I say Yoji bots and there are some potential flags. He says he doesn't and you agree with Yoji.


    In this case do we ban Yoji? What about if you were the person in question?


    My personal opinion is you are free to buy/sell to anyone or not for any reason per current rules. I keep a personal blacklist and also use statistical data to measure the value of a trade.


    So some players I won't trade with on here.

  • ardunain Your proposal relies on "obvious" cases. Those cases are obvious because they've provided incriminating evidence of botting. They'll just stop doing that.


    As far as [PhD] members acquiring botted items, I'm assuming that you're (still) talking about one recent thread where some pretty unremarkable items were being given away. It's worth noting that you're talking about a give away, not a sale. There is no advantage gained by giving items away. Selling botted items creates an unfair advantage for the seller. They become rich and squeeze other people out of the market. Selling botted items (which is what we're talking about) directly affects the quality of life of players who don't cheat. If people were out there botting items just so they could play Santa Claus, I doubt we'd be having this conversation at all.


    As for the integrity of [PhD] collections, just remember: You can't bot the good stuff ;)

    <3[PhD]<3

  • Captain Krompdown even if they wouldnt dissapear imo there are ways of making some kind of limitation as I said there have been examples that are way too obvious to not know they re botted threads and the acceptance of bot data by our members is just sad. Also I Know that PhD is against buying currency for Dollars, can you explain me why you guys are fine with getting more items into collection from botters? Whats fun and nostalgic about that?

    There re forums for botters and legacy wasnt one of them till now. We could aswell just allow posting bot files here if you and moderators Iaerah dont see a way of doing something about that.

    What I would do is just simply take notes, you delete post when see flaming and you could delete threads that are known to be botted. I mean what else you need to know if same account posts bot data and then same items that drop from current chestrun are later on auction?

    Legacy is still not a forums for botters - we won't allow discussion about anything concerning bots, how to make them and how to run them. Or just anything about bots, really.

    When something is about bots itself, it will be banned before you can say the word "Quidditch".


    What is a problem is how do you police things that are gained from botting, but for which you have no solid proof that it has been botted. Just suspecting that something was botted isn't enough, even if 1+1 equals 2, it still could be that (some) items were gained in a legal way. However, we're looking into what we should do in those cases. It ain't easy.

    Whenever you start policing, you usually have some evidence behind you and the ability to verify those things. That's kinda impossible for us and hard to avoid.

    If we crack down on it harder, people might simply use an alternative account to sell the items, or to post the data. And they could just drop it in smaller packets, over different accounts (while we do track IP's, IP's alone are totally not enough to ban someone. Banning 1 IP could block an entire country - Pokémon GO once banned 2 IP's from a Belgian ISP and all of the customers of that ISP were unable to play Pokémon GO. Blame carrier grade NAT).


    For now, we are deciding what to do when it is very clear that there has been botted and what to do when it is certain beyond reasonable doubt.

    Perhaps a public blacklist is something which we need to do. It's being discussed.


    It's far too easy to state that someone is a cheater, and we want to avoid that at all costs.

    Hi there! I'm the Guild Wars Legacy admin, feel free to contact me if you've got issues.

    :ass: Inquisitor Karinda :der: Sunspear Elke :mes:Librarian Amber